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From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent)
Newsgroups: net.singles
Subject: replies to the downpour
Message-ID: <1057@pucc-h>
Date: Thu, 30-Aug-84 11:38:27 EDT
Article-I.D.: pucc-h.1057
Posted: Thu Aug 30 11:38:27 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 1-Sep-84 11:24:05 EDT
Organization: Tucumcari Divinity School
Lines: 151

I will respond to just a few salient points in the published responses to
my psychoanalytical article.  (Those who have sent me letters:  I will get
responses out to you soonish....)  Let me just point out (as I'm half surprised
no one else did) that that article would never have been published had I not
been too proud to be able to forgive my own imperfections -- and envious and
angry at those who seem to have much smaller imperfections.  (Besides, when I
was a kid, I based my identity on being near-perfect scholastically, and it's
hard to get away from that idea that I *must* be perfect, even now.)

> Oh, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff--you told us you were getting better.  [Ken Perlow]

I think what happened was that some previous problems were pretty well taken
care of, and it was time to unearth some other ones and deal with them.  A line
from a song by the Steve Miller Band is appropriate:  "You know you've got to
go through hell before you get to heaven" -- i.e. before I can reach a healthy
relationship, I have to go through the pain of working through and getting rid
of as much as I can that would prevent such a relationship from starting or
would muck it up if it did start.

> And I really don't like your use of "nevertheless" - you seem to be
> implying that love is associated with perfection, and that it may
> require effort to learn to love someone even if they aren't perfect.
> Rubbish.  Can't you love someone's faults as well as their good
> features?  Wait, I'll make a yet stronger statement:  If you see
> someone as perfect, you can worship them but you cannot really love
> them at all.  It is only the real, imperfect people that you can love,
> not the pedestalized perfect ones.  [Dave Martindale]

Again, when I was a kid, love, or at least approval (which I needed
desperately), was conditioned on approaching perfection as closely as
possible.  For me, at least, it requires a lot of effort to be patient with
another person's faults, to force myself not to lambaste the person with
destructive criticism but rather to try to affirm him/her.  On the other
hand, if one defines "love" as the giving type of love (in the New Testament
Greek, agape') rather than desire (eros), one would have a tough time loving
and giving to someone without any needs; so your last sentence is correct --
just not easy.

> But to be warm and caring demands a lot more lusty thoughts than
> Platonic dialogue.  It's too bad Jeff thinks such thoughts are so
> sinful.  [Ken Perlow]

Perhaps this depends on your definitions of "warm" and "caring".  There are
numerous people of both sexes with whom I have reasonably warm and caring
relationships, but these certainly do not "demand" lusty thoughts.  True,
in some cases there has been unilateral desire for more than just friendship
-- by the woman, at least once -- but the warmth of the friendship is still
there without anything more.  And as to "sinful":  I still hold to the belief
that sexual relationships outside of a mutually loving and trusting atmosphere
(such as would, we hope, prevail in a marriage) are painfully unwise.

> Jeff would indeed benefit from a loving and caring SO.  He seems to be
> scared to try to find a real, live, down-to-earth woman.  [Ken Perlow]

I would certainly benefit from some loving and caring, though I'm not sure if
what I need is a full-fledged SO or just a very close female friend.  You're
right: I am scared to find a real woman, because there are a lot of fears and
other negativisms left over from my relationship with my mother; I need some
woman who is gentle and strong -- in the sense of being unfazed by anything,
NOT in the sense of being domineering (I had enough of that at home; that's
why I'm afraid) -- to help me work through them.  What are the odds of a woman
of that type who is willing to help me even existing?

> Jeff, last time I looked, they didn't let women be priest. [Chuq Von Rospach]

Well, the Bible does say something about all believers being priests, but
that's beside the immediate point.

> You shouldn't be guilty for being you in the first place. If you don't LIKE
> the way you are and are creating all of these feelings of guilt about it,
> don't ask someone for absolution. Ask yourself WHY you don't like yourself
> and then go out and change it.  [more Chuq]

Again, part of this is from the well-inculcated idea from childhood that if
you aren't perfect, you're worthy only of being rejected and despised.
And as to changing the way I am:  what do you think has been going on lo these
many years?  Perhaps I don't need to ask for absolution, but I still wonder if
I can find a woman who is willing and able to meet my needs and put up with my
faults, whose needs I can meet and whose faults I can handle.

> sigh. Jeff, I think you worry too much...  [Chuq]

Remember, I have two big reasons to desperately want any relationship to work
out right:  1. I was raised a perfectionist, and if I can't make a go of a
relationship, that makes me a failure, which is very hard to handle.  2. My
parents divorced, and even now (almost 21 years later) I'm still finding
wounds from that; I cannot allow myself the possibility of that happening.

> The easiest way I've found [to have a working SO-ship] is to simply stop
> worrying about it and let it happen...  [Chuq]

I don't see how I can "let" it happen.  That's fine for a mutual rush of
romance, but I'm well aware that most of life between two people isn't like
that, so you might as well be prepared to bust your tail to get and keep
things working.  Besides, romantic desire is deceptive; it can lead two people
together who realistically should not be together for the long haul.

I thought that you worked in a technical-type job.  In such a position, you
should be well acquainted with Murphy's law.  This applies even more to
relationships than to circuits, programs, or whatever; and it is my intention
to minimize the chances of Murphy's law mucking up any of my attempts to
relate.

> The ideas in your article are bizarre (to say the least).  Aren't
> they projections of your own confused feelings?  [Alan Driscoll]

Yes, but, as I said in one other article, I suspect that I'm not the only
person with similar feelings.

> The day you are perfect in every way is the day you can begin expecting
> perfection from others.  [Walt Kurszewski]

The problem is expecting perfection from myself, and no longer getting it as
I did (well, pretty close...Latin on my Bachelor's degree) when I was dealing
with comparatively simple stuff like academic courses.  What I'm hoping is
that a woman not so damaged, and thus not so imperfect, as I would somehow be
able to overlook the imperfections enough to let the good in me attract her.

> If you'd stop thinking of what qualities you demand in a SO and start
> striving for the qualities that a woman would "demand" in a SO then
> you might attract a mate.  [Walt Kurszewski]

What do you think I've been trying to do all this time?  Perhaps you do have
a point; I've been striving to get rid of things that a woman would NOT want;
there is some evidence that in the process I've acquired some qualities a
woman would want...but I still have to work at them, they don't come naturally.

> Why would you hate all women?  Why would you want to "defile" what you see
> as "sweet purity"?  Why do you consider yourself "wondrously impure"?  Why
> do you fantasize about women being raped by other men or performing lesbian
> acts?  Is this Christian?  [Walt Kurszewski]

Again, it's hard to avoid projecting my mother onto all women.  The fact that
I am fairly close to two other women who also have such big needs as to be
frightening doesn't help.  It gives me the idea that the only women who are
interested in me are those who want to drain me, while those who have something
to give me without making demands I am unable to fulfill will remain forever
aloof.  If one nurses this idea for a few years, it's hard to remain free of
negative feelings.  This defilement business may come from the idea that "If
I can't have all that goodness, I'll destroy it so no one else can have it
either!"  Of COURSE this isn't Christian; one of the purposes of Christ is to
heal people of problems like this (and much worse), but alas, that doesn't
happen instantly in most cases.

Summary:  Growth is occurring; I could use some good female assistance; but
I'm not sure where to find it.

-- 
-- Jeff Sargent
{decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq
"I may be rancid butter, but I'm on your side of the bread."