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From: mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Referendums and Initiatives
Message-ID: <1176@dciem.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 29-Oct-84 13:45:14 EST
Article-I.D.: dciem.1176
Posted: Mon Oct 29 13:45:14 1984
Date-Received: Mon, 29-Oct-84 16:20:59 EST
References: <854@ubc-ean.CDN>
Organization: D.C.I.E.M., Toronto, Canada
Lines: 82

===============
It seems that basically all this boils down to the fact that
you consider the average person much too stupid to be able to
properly exercise some direct control over his/her life, 
thus necessitating that  virtually all political power to be
in the hands of a few; while I believe that Joe Blow off the 
street has every right *and* capability to make these decisions,
and that too much power in the hands of too few people is not
a good state of affairs.

                                               J.B. Robinson
===============
There is a difference between thinking of people as stupid and
recognizing that they are uninformed.  All the political philosophies
that rely on individuals to look after themselves assume (i) that
the information can in principle be obtained by anyone, and (ii) that
people have both the will and time to get it.

Philosophies that go to the other extreme, and rely on a dictator
for everything assume that the dictator is smart enough to juggle
all the factors on all issues facing the country.

My philosophy is one of balance.  I abhore the removal of liberty
from individuals in matters that have little impact outside the
immediate friendship/family circle of that individual.  I equally
abhore the imposition on all individuals of the need to become expert
in every matter that concerns them.  I believe in trust, in delegation
of responsibility and authority, and THAT is what responsible
government is about.

===============
>  In a referendum initiated by our representatives, at least there has
>  been a period of consideration, both about the wording and about what
>  some of the side effects may be.  You can complain all you want about
>  "stupid" politicians, but I have yet to meet one who was as stupid as
>  the average person.  They have to deal with a huge number of issues,
>  and that's why they have staffs and why we pay for research staffs for
>  both the government and the opposition.

This period of consideration would also exist with initiatives. It
would be called the campaign. 

I've never complained about stupid politicians and I don't recall
anyone else doing so either. Like you, I believe that they are 
probably above average in intelligence. What I have complained
about is self-serving politicians which,  unfortunately, is 
what the majority of them are.  
===============
By the time the campaign is going, the questions have been settled.
Do you think the framers of initiative questions will be any less
self-serving than politicians who have to answer to the electorate
for their failures?

* * * * * * * * *
You complained about my example of a referendum to (i) cut taxes,
(ii) reduce the civil service, and (iii) improve government services.
You say that any electorate handed that would know the wool was being
pulled over their eyes.  But didn't California voters get exactly
that guff in the Proposition 13 campaign, and didn't they approve it?
Granted the three conditions were not all in the wording of the
proposal, but they sure voted their pocketbooks in violation of
common sense.  Look at Ray Simard's ravings in net.politics
("fuzzy-headed liberals").  All he cares about is that he stands
to gain $50/week this year if Reagan wins, and to hell with whoever
has to pay for those deficits.

Some voters care, but few could possibly become experts in even one
of the complex sets of results from an initiative.  As you say, those
we pay to be experts often aren't, but at least they are better than
most.  They make mistakes, but not as many as we would if we were
ruled by referendum and especially by initiative.

Some time ago, the paper reported a blind tasting of Ontario beers.
IPA was voted the best by a wide margin, and most of the others were
hard to tell apart.  But which beers are top sellers? Not IPA, for sure.
The top sellers are the ones our highly skilled advertisers work on.
Are matters any different in politics?
-- 

Martin Taylor
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