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From: eugene@ames.UUCP (Eugene Miya)
Newsgroups: net.cse
Subject: Re: Teaching UNIX
Message-ID: <635@ames.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 12-Nov-84 14:29:21 EST
Article-I.D.: ames.635
Posted: Mon Nov 12 14:29:21 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 14-Nov-84 04:44:40 EST
References: <88@athena.UUCP> <640@clyde.UUCP> <369@watcgl.UUCP>
Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA
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> > I think this is a totally unreasonable expectation. As has been mentioned
> > in previous articles, universities are in the business of teaching
> > concepts, problem solving, and ( for CS programs ) structured programming
> > which should enable any graduate to learn how to use most any other
> > language/OS/computer when it is needed as opposed to trying to learn
> > every one of the popular, fad operating systems and languages that comes
> > along.
> 
> Are you suggesting that UNIX is a "fad" operating system, while VMS,
> VM/CMS and friends are "real" operating systems?

The original article [I thought] started out on a good thread.  Yes, ideally,
universities are in that business and should be unbiased.....
I don't think you will find many who will disagree, but maybe "real men"
should start eating quiche just to rebuke that popular book [and real
programmers should start using Pascal, just to rebuke that popular arcticle].
As for fads, I guess studying electricity was a `fad' 200 years ago, too.

>  
> > average university wants to put on them. Try running some extremely
> > large number crunching problems on a Un*x machine sometime. I'll take
> > a large CDC, Cray, or IBM any day. See what happens when more than
> > 25 people want to use EMACS at once. 
> 
> I read this as saying that a "large CDC, Cray, or IBM" machine can support
> a large number of users because it prevents anyone from using one of the
> more powerful tools of modern computer science.  Quite true.  I consider
> that an argument for, not against, UNIX.  Also, consider just how many
> VAXes you can buy for the price of one large CDC machine, or a Cray.
> And there are UNIX machines that give better performance/price than a VAX.

Working with people at LLNL and ANL, I must conclude that Crays (for this type
of work are more cost effective) at this point in time.  Obviously this is an
oversimplification: if a Cray goes down everybody is out [They are quite
reliable], but some number of VAX might be down and some work is being done
somewhere.  It depends on the work deing done.  Avoid text editing small files.
However, it would sure be nice to have some good software tools on the Cray.
What makes an Apple II more powerful than the old ENIAC is the software,
not just the level of electronics inside.

> > Another problem is faculty "hogging" of resources.

This is a political problem.  Politics creates interesting problems, but
running some other system (say CMS) is not going to solve this problem.

We have people who want to add a batch control facility to SV.  They are
in a position of power, but their computer exposure is with IBMs, CDCs
and Crays: give a person a hammer and everything turns into a nail.

> > When you start talking pragmatics, you should look at both sides of 
> > the problem. 

This sounds kind of "holier-than-thou."  Looking at a problem `pragmatically'
is not necessarily the job of a unversity [perhaps "looking at both (or more)
sides of a problem" is].  

The discussion between the gentlemen from AT&T and the U of Waterloo
sounds like the ongoing discussion between the older, CENTRALIZED computer
concept and the newer distributed workstation (read `time-share') argument.
It reflects the very structures of the two systems (AT&T and a university)
where each of the men are coming from [Fred Brooks are you listening?].

Perhaps computing is undergoing the kind of social revolution which
countries in Europe did went changing from monarchy to democracy.  The
computing center will still exist providing `super' services but it needs
to adapt.

--eugene miya
  NASA Ames Res. Ctr.
  {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,vortex}!ames!aurora!eugene
  emiya@ames-vmsb.ARPA