Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site pucc-k Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxj!ihnp4!inuxc!pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H:Pucc-I:Pucc-K:agz From: agz@pucc-k (Andrew Banta) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: morals, and the low correlation with religion Message-ID: <468@pucc-k> Date: Sat, 20-Oct-84 16:27:02 EDT Article-I.D.: pucc-k.468 Posted: Sat Oct 20 16:27:02 1984 Date-Received: Tue, 23-Oct-84 01:52:47 EDT References: <453@pucc-k> <248@qantel.UUCP> Organization: Dept. of Mental Instability, Purdue University Lines: 132 Ken, You obviously have some pretty set beliefs, and I'm not here to try to tell you that you should change them. I am going to comment on my feelingson them. They differ from yours a fair amount, and I hope you realize that I'm not condemning you for them. >Laurie writes, >> ... I would most certainly >> burn in hell because I had not accepted jesus christ as my personal saviour. > >She was right. My, you must be in on something that the rest of the world isn't. I have no complaint if these are your own beliefs, but to make a statement that this is FACT is going just a little too far! Not all the world accepts these facts, and I see no reason they should. These are beliefs, not facts. Each person has their own beliefs. Facts are undeniable truths. The two are not the same, and I don't see any reason to try to say that ones own beliefs are factual, except to simply better his argument. > You burn in hell for your rebellion against God. The rebellion you were born > with. God, in His omnipotence will take care of the child and the monk. If > they are searching for God, they will be rewarded in finding Christ (the only > way to heaven). And just what is rebellion against God? Which God are we talking about here? There are as many Gods as there are people in the world, simply because each one has their own vision of what God is. Even if you don't believe in a God, you probably have a pretty good concept in your own head of what a God would be or do. It irks me when other people try to push their God on me. Why should I believe in their God? If I have my own, and don't have any complaints, nobody has to "save" me from anything. There is nothing of danger out there, I don't need to be "saved" from some terrible "burning" that is going to happen when I die. >> Anyway, about every May, we would be deluged with students from the local >> baptist high school. They apparently had to 'save' x number of people to >> graduate from high school. >> It got to be a game to see how many times we were going to be >> saved in a given month. > > That was not a very good approach to use on a child, to be sure. But they > were basically right in there motives for doing it. They didn't want to > see little children live without the joy of accepting Christ. "They were basically right in there [sic] motives for doing it."?!! It seems to me that a major problem with "Christianity", when viewed this way is, that it IS a game to see how many people you can wheedle into your way of thinking but nothing more than scare tactics. I realize this probably is going to be planty of flame food for you out there, but what other way is there to explain it? >> Well, the jist of this is that the fundamentalist movement appears to have >> a rather odd idea of what you need to be a *good* person. Apparently >> inherent morality isn't worth anything. > > That is absolutely right. Why should you get to make the standards that you > live by. The Bible says, "There is a way that seemeth right to a man, and > the end thereof is death." Your 'good' deeds are nothing but dirty rags in > the sight of a holy God. Nothing you do is going to make you deserving of > anything from God but death and punishment in hell forever and ever. If this is what you and your "God" advocate, I'm not sure that I would want to even try to argue with you. I don't really feel there is anything after this life, then what harm are good deeds during this life going to do? If I feel good being kind to others, then isn't that enough for me (obviously not for you) to make myself happy while I'm alive on Earth? Why do you feel this need to change me? >> It is the acceptance of *their* >> god into your life which makes all the difference. > > Right again. At least you know what we beleive. Since there is no way that > we can reach God's standards on our own, and the result of this is punishment > in Hell, God sent His son, Jesus Christ to satisfy the anger of God towards > our sin. However, in order to become justified in God's sight, we must first > accept the gift that God gave in the form of Jesus. Doing this involves: > 1. Admiting you are a sinner ... blah blah blah ... > This is the meaning of the phrase 'receive Christ as your personal saviour.' You hit it right on the head ... "you know what we believe." Right, we know what you believe. But that is no reason for us to accept it as out own belief. You give us a list of things to do to be like you. What if we don't want to be like you? What if we are happy the way we are? I think I'd feel pretty miserable if my one purpose in life would be to make other people believe like I do. If they believe something different, and I can't prove them wrong, why should I interfere? You can't prove your position is right. You obvously feel that you are right. Why can't we just say "I'm OK, You're OK", and leave it at that. > Something I'd like to point out here is now that you are saved, the 'good' > deeds you did in the past, will now be *GOOD* deeds if you do them now. Now > they are done for the right reasons (out of love for God, and His gift to > you). If I do a "good" deed, it isn't because I'm showing off to a God, it's because I wanted to do it, because I wanted to feel good about it myself and maybe have someone else feel good about it. It wasn't because I had to, or because if I don't, I won't be "saved". It is because I wanted to do it. >>It appears, in their frenzy to 'save' souls (is that like plaid stamps?), they >> have gotten their own morality distilled into a mere meaningless chanting of >> words. > > Man's morality is worth nothing in the sight of a holy and just God. I find it a bit hard to believe that anyone would ever admit that their morality was "mere meaningless chanting of words.", but I guess you just did it. If that's what you want, who am I to complain? > All this follows after you have become saved. Having turned your life over to > the Lord will cause the good thoughts about Him to be expressed in good words > and deeds. I seriously doubt that whenever someone does a good deed, they say "Hey, that was just a good thought for my God." Then again, there probably are people like that. If they do "good deeds", than I guess I shouldn't question their motivation. Whatever. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Banta {decvax!allegra!ihnp4}!pur-ee!pucc-k!agz Dept. of Mental Instability, Purdue University --- "I'm OK, You're a CS Major" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "A kind word and a gun will get you a lot more than a kind word."