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From: dmcanzi@watdcsu.UUCP (David Canzi)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: sinner by birth, sinner by choice
Message-ID: <575@watdcsu.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 28-Oct-84 21:19:39 EST
Article-I.D.: watdcsu.575
Posted: Sun Oct 28 21:19:39 1984
Date-Received: Mon, 29-Oct-84 03:03:50 EST
Organization: U of Waterloo, Ontario
Lines: 50

Here are a few more Ken Nichols quotes, carefully selected:

>             You will never be brought to a saving knowledge of God unless you
> are first drawn by the Holy Spirit.  You do not have to realize you are being 
> drawn, and you don't need to know who is drawing you.  But you do have to be
> drawn.  

> Faith is not a virtue, it is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9).  You will not 
> have any faith unless the Holy Spirit gives it to you.

>                                     You can't do anything to make yourself
> understand the plan of salvation.  I said, 'if you had been shown by the Holy
> Spirit'. The Spirit is the one doing all the action.  You can't help yourself.
> That is one of the major points of Christianity.  There is nothing that a man
> can do to save himself.

Sounds pretty hopeless, eh?  If you haven't been saved, tough luck, Jack.
On the other hand...

>                                                         If you choose to 
> beleive in "scientific and other intellectual progress" as Tim does, and not
> by faith, that is fine with God.  He has given the evidence, the rest is up to
> you to make the choice.  That is why God designed the plan of salvation with
> free choice. 

Ie. if you choose *not* to do as Tim does, you can be saved.  It seems that
you *can* help yourself, after all.

>           However, in order to become justified in God's sight, we must first
> accept the gift that God gave in the form of Jesus.  Doing this involves:

...and Ken goes on to list 5 things you can do to be saved, once again 
showing that there is something you can do, and so it is not *entirely*
up to the God.

Make up your mind, Ken.  Either there is nothing we can do to save ourselves,
or there is.  If the first case is true, you should shut up, because you are
not helping anybody, either the damned or the saved.  If the second case is
true, you should stop insisting on the total helplessness of mankind to save
themselves.  Or is admitting that you have played some part in your salvation
a form of the sin of pride?


> 1. [Admit] you are a sinner by birth and by choice, and that you can nothing
>     to get rid of your sin.   

If I am a sinner by birth, then I have had no *choice* in the matter.  
Make up your mind:  are we sinners by birth, or are we sinners by choice?

	David Canzi