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From: yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: awesome logic... overwhelming
Message-ID: <1622@ucf-cs.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 29-Oct-84 09:04:34 EST
Article-I.D.: ucf-cs.1622
Posted: Mon Oct 29 09:04:34 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 31-Oct-84 01:31:32 EST
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Organization: UCF, Orlando, FL
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I had thought most everyone knew what the texts were. I guess I hadn't
made it clear. The texts are the earliest extant manuscripts of the
N'tzarim writings: at present the codices sinaiticus and vaticanus, Peshitta,
and the papyrii. The object is to use the same 'glasses' the authors
used when trying to understand them rather than rely on the traditional
non-Jewish 'glasses' which introduce a LOT of alien ideas which are  
contradictory to the intents of the original Jews who wrote them. There
is nothing 'secret' about it. In fact, the great majority of what I've
been writing here is not new at all. The only 2 things which are new
are that 1) a lot of information from many different scholars has been
compiled in one place and 2) the compiled information has been relayed
to laymen rather than being left in the relative obscurity of the many 
diverse scholarly texts. 
  
The texts which provide the 'background fabric' within which to pro-
perly interpret the N'tzarim writings include the Pseudepigrapha,
the Apocrypha, etc. which have been listed before. However, it must
be remembered that these are also Jewish writings which, therefore,
must also be understood through Jewish 'glasses' to come to under-
stand the background fabric. All of these Jewish writings can be
harmonized if one merely determines to do so - and is willing to
shelf 'pre-assumed facts' (Christian doctrines).  Without legitimate
insight into Jewish things, everything gets off track - which has
been the problem. Examples include Easter vs Passover, Shabbat vs.
Sunday, whether to eat kosher, and the entire issue of keeping
Torah. (A better-than-average treatment of Shabbat vs Sunday may
be found in the Sep/Oct '78 issue of BAR).

Even though the codices sinaiticus, vaticanus and the Peshitta date
from the 4th century, comparison of the changes made in subsequent
mss. shows clearly an anti-semitic and antinomian evolution in progress
(which SHOULD be entirely expected given the history during that 
evolution to the present).

Since the antinomian and anti-semitic evolution of the manuscripts is
PROVABLE from the 4th century thru the present, there is no reason to
think that it was absent from, say, circa 60 CE thru the 4th century;
and all of the available evidence (some of which I have presented and
some of which may be found in the references I've cited as well as
elsewhere) makes it quite clear that such anti-semitic and antinomian
evolution took place during that period also. 

It is then but a short step to begin reading the N'tzarim writings thru
'glasses' which filter some of this antinomianism and anti-semitism,
regarding such passages as suspect at least until support for such
'Jewish position' is also found in the Pseudepigrapha, etc. There is
every reason to expect a Jewish sect to be inagreement with other
Jewish sects in the main except where disagreement is specifically
made. In the case of the N'tzarim writings, we also have to take into
account the Christian redactions and introduction of antinomian and
anti-semitic 'rewordings' which are provable in many instances sub-
sequent to the 4th century and there is every reason to believe the
same is true from the 1st-4th centuries as well. But, as I believe
I have mentioned often, the same phrase can mean one thing to a Jew
and something entirely different to a non-Jew. Which is the correct
interpretation? It depends on who wrote or spoke it. If it was written
of spoken by a gentile, then the gentile interpretation is the correct
one. If it was written/spoken by a Jew, then the Jewish interpretation.
Communication is only accurate when you have understood the originator.
One of the biggest problems is that non-Jews cannot imagine just how
far off track they get from how Jews understood the N'tzarim writings.
(Today, of course, Jews have little to no interest and are content to
accept whatever translation or interpretation you want to advance.
I've been hoping to turn on a few light bulbs in a limited time.)
The only solution for that is to become familiar with Judaism - an
in-depth understanding. Nothing else will enable you to develop a
Jewish insight - and that is what you absolutely must have if you 
are ever to understand them as they were written and intended. That
in no way makes it impossible for you or anyone else. It does make
it mutually exclusive with respect to Christianity. Anyone who desires
to understand Jewish writings in a Jewish light will have to abandon
the counterfeit religion and study Judaism. Since no orthodox rabbi
accepts that Y'shua was the messiah, you will have to be tolerant 
of their beliefs while you learn. You will also have to come
to a realization within yourself (as you soon will after you
begin your studies) that you don't know very much so you shouldn't
be trying to preach to the rabbi and other Jews. But, at the very
least, you will need to take a basic course such as converts take
(you don't have to convert to take the class), attend synagogue
for 2-3 years and learn how to mingle with the orthodox Jewish
community and learn about their attitudes, values and culture. In
the process, you will learn much about the basics of Judaism and
some Jewish insight which you will find invaluable in understanding
Jewish writings - and for which there is no substitute. If you are
willing to do all this, I hope you will keep in touch.

So to summarize, the texts of the N'tzarim writings are the earliest
extant manuscripts. They have evolved in an antinomian and anti-
semitic direction from the 4th century thru the present and there
is much evidence to to believe this was also true of the 1st-4th 
centuries and there is no evidence to doubt it. Even if original
Hebrew manuscripts were dug up today and then became our earliest
extant mss., Christians could still not interpret them as they
were intended by the Jewish authors because they have enormous
misunderstandings of Jews and Jewish things - both then and now.
This cannot be remedied by an intellectual 'instant breakfast'.
It took years to develop your frame of reference just as it took
years for a Jew to develop his. It will take some time of concen-
trated effort to develop what is now to you an alien frame of
reference, but a perspective you MUST have to understand those
Jewish writings as they were intended. To provide you with any
more of the N'tzarim writings would require the publishing of
their translation. Find a publisher. There are many helps in it
in the way of commentary, cross-references, Hebrew and Greek
word studies (especially bridging across LXX), index, a trans-
lation which maps one-to-one from Greek to English so that the
reader always has an insight how that word has been used in
other parts of the text (better stilted in English than lose
so much trying to make it read smoothly), explanations for
Hebrew/Aramaic metaphors, etc., and explanations of events not
presented anywhere else (example: the date of the execution of
Y'shua can be precisely fixed with a high degree of confidence)
and answers to many questions which have plagued non-Jewish 
'experts' because they were non-Jewish (and, by definition, 
THEREFORE not experts on Jewish writings). If this information
is desirable, please find a publisher rather than pulling it
out of me a bite at the time - it could drag on interminably
and I just can't afford that kind of time. My purpose was to
show the basics and show that Christianity has no basis to
presume 'correctness' over Judaism. I've done that. Now I'd
really like to retire. If someone wants to read this text,
I've worked for years on it and I feel like I've done my
part. It's there. If you want it, get it published. If not,
well, I'm working on a master's in computer science so I can
earn an income again; just let me get on with that. For those
few who might want to learn, please correspond via mail.

That was a good question and I hope I answered it appropriately.