Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site hou4b.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxj!houxm!hogpc!houti!ariel!hou5f!hou4b!mat From: mat@hou4b.UUCP Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: A pridefull man's reaction to a Holy God. Message-ID: <1198@hou4b.UUCP> Date: Wed, 31-Oct-84 00:12:08 EST Article-I.D.: hou4b.1198 Posted: Wed Oct 31 00:12:08 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 31-Oct-84 06:33:33 EST References: <543@watdcsu.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Information Systems Laboratories, Holmdel, NJ Lines: 108 > Lines beginning with ">" are from Ken Nichols' response to my "KGA" article. > . . . > > > > 2) We are all guilty of Adam's and Eve's rebelliousness. We are all guilty > > > of crucifying Christ. If this doesn't make sense to you, see rule 1. > > > > We are all guilty of our own rebelliousness. Adam and Eve were merely the ones > > that started the fad. Because of our sin of rebellion against God, Christ came > > to die. In this, we had a small part in killing Him. > > You mentioned original sin briefly in your article. You also led me to > believe that we have more than a "small part" of the guilt for the crucifiction > with your remarks: > Man deserves even worse for his blatent hatred and rebellion against God. > Look what mankind did to Jesus Christ. > And since you say that in God's sight we *all* deserve damnation, it must be > for one of these two sins. (These are the only sins we *all* have in common. > I'll have more to say about rebellion below.) Either way, we are all being > held responsible for the actions of others over which we had no possible > control, and we are subject to the worst possible punishment for it. You're > unwittingly helping Tim Maroney make his point. It's clear that your God is > arbitrary and cruel. ``Whatsoever you do to the least of My brothers, this you have done to Me.'' Who among us has not been cruel? Who among us has given as much as he can give to alleviate world hunger? To eliminate war? We sit here bitching and moaning about US Marines in Grenada, and about nuclear weapons that noone wants to use while wars are being fought in the third world, while people are dying of starvation caused by bad land use encouraged or allowed by incompetent government . . . As we do this (and I include myself) we are all letting Christ's sisters and brothers die of hunger, or suffocate under political oppression or disease. THAT is a sin that we are certainly all guilty of -- all perhaps except a few like Mother Theresa, like the late Dr. Schwietzer, some of the clergy in Poland, etc. As an aside, the US has been sending aid in the form of food to the drought- stricken areas of Africa ... Ethiopia, Somalia, and their neighbors. For what it may be worth, since the beginning of August, that region of Africa has been receiving 43 million dollars in aid PER WEEK. This is added to aid coming from other developed counties. The total is still not half enough to meet the need. > > > 4) All mankind deserves eternal torment, not because of anything done > > > wrong, but just because. See rule 1. > > > > All men are born in rebellion to God. This act is sin and deserving > > of punishment. > > In order to rebel against some authority (eg. God), we need to know about > the authority, know (or believe we know) what the authority wants, and then > go ahead and do something else. Any knowledge about God or what he wants > from us is beyond our understanding for the first year of our lives, and > probably somewhat longer. To say that we are already rebelling against > God on the day we are born is ridiculous. > Which of us does not feel guilty when we see another suffering and we do nothing about it? And how many of us DO something about the derelict (who smells so bad that we wait for a thunderstorm to even go NEAR him?) or about the people left to die in loneliness in nursing homes? Or ... Oh, we KNOW what to do, alright. Accepting Jesus as your living God and Saviour requires more than singing in church every Sunday. How many of us do those things? . . . > > > Oh, Lord, you are great and powerful; in your sight I am lower than > > > a worm. You are wise and wonderful; I am but two-day-old maggot-infested > > > dog shit to you. You are NOT lower than a worm. You are made in God's image, with a will and with the ability to chose between right and wrong ... between accepting God AND your fellow human beings -- especially the lowliest, and ignoring the needs of others and rejecting God by doing so. > > > If I lick your mighty feet, will you mercifully refrain from turning > > > me into carp food? If I kiss your holy ass will you resist the > > > understandable urge to evaporate me on the spot? I submit that boot-licking and ass-kissing were just what the (New Testament) Pharisees were into ... and perhaps what we are into as well. Jesus told the Pharisees that it doesn't work that way. He said that prostitutes and tax collectors are making it into heaven before ``holy men''. As to things being understandable ... I don't quite think that they are. God made us. God loves us. Somehow, He loves us each with the all the fullness of His love. And perhaps that is why we can hurt Him. Because He submits Himself to us they way He submitted Himself to those who crucified Him. Love makes us vulnerable. Perhaps in His love, He makes Himself vulnerable to our hurt. Why? That is one of the great open questions of theology. . . . > > Prideful and proud of it, > David Canzi > And I also enjoy pride, David. And perhaps I am proud of that too. But I still know that pride has bounds beyond which it should not go. -- from Mole End Mark Terribile (scrape .. dig ) hou4b!mat ,.. .,, ,,, ..,***_*.