Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site ucf-cs.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!unc!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!yiri From: yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Christianity and its Relationship to... specifically Judaism Message-ID: <1628@ucf-cs.UUCP> Date: Tue, 30-Oct-84 09:53:26 EST Article-I.D.: ucf-cs.1628 Posted: Tue Oct 30 09:53:26 1984 Date-Received: Thu, 1-Nov-84 04:17:08 EST Organization: UCF, Orlando, FL Lines: 84 Confining myself only to the area of the relationship of Judaism and Christianity in Charlie's article, there are some areas which have been disputed and unanswered in previous articles and which have apparently been presumed here again. There are no grounds for Charlie to make any claims or assertions regarding Judaism vis-a-vis Christianity. While there is contro- versy around the net among Christians regarding any given Christian's knowledge of Christianity, there should be no question that the Christian does not know Judaism and is, therefore, unqualified to make such statements about it. Christians should not pretend to speak for Judaism. That is for Jews, and Jews only, to do. There are basically two statements which, in my opinion, are unjustified and in error. 1) 'Christianity does not in and of itself deny ANY other religion; in particular, it invests Judaism with a certain validity (although it claims to supercede it)." All of modern Christianity sprang from the early Roman Catholic church and the church fathers mentioned by such writers as Eusebius. And the basis of this Christianity is documented as being based upon the premises that the CHURCH is the TRUE ISRAEL and CHRISTIANS are the TRUE JEWS. That makes us im- posters and deceivers and blasphemers for calling ourselves Jews. Now this is documented history whether you like it or not or whether you agree with it or not. (Read Parkes... PLEASE.) This has been the grounds for repeated persecutions, and antisemitism which is evident in Christianity in this country at this very moment. I have personally heard the assertion that the church is the TRUE ISRAEL and that Christians are the TRUE JEWS and that we should therefore 'be taken care of'. This position was taken on the Donahue show a year or so ago (a different show than the one I recently chronicled on the net.) Trying to gloss over the problem and sugar coat it does not make it go away, it only makes it al the more insidious. Christianity depends upon the assumption that it has indeed 'superceded' Judaism - and that means that Judaism is now obsolete - because Christ 'saved' you from keeping Torah. At that time, our religion wasn't even called Judaism, it was called the Way of Torah which you are supposedly now saved from. Trying to put new clothes on this old notion now doesn't change it one iota. Claiming that Judaism has been 'superceded' and/or that it is obsolete certainly denies its validity. The fact remains that Judaism states that Christ did NOT replace Torah and 'saves' no one from the responsibility of trying to keep Torah, so if you do not deny Judaism, then abandon your Christian paganism and make tracks to an orthodox synagogue to clean up your act like Judaism teaches. 2) 'One question we must ask, therefore, is whether or not other religions can be harmonized with Christianity.' Ask not whether other religions can be harmonized with Christianity, ask rather whether Christianity can be harmonized with other religions. At least from the standpoint of Judaism, we are not going to harmonize with you. Tolerance is one thing, 'harmonizing' is something else again. If you want to harmonize, then align yourself with Judaism, don't expect us to align ourselves with you because it isn't going to happen - ever. (It will happen that you will eventually come over to us according to the prophecies which you appropriate from us. That's neither here nor there except to demonstrate that our perspective is quite different from yours.) Charlie wisely posed the question rather than make an assertion. I submit that the answer from Judaism is a resounding, unequivocal, and non-negotiable 'no', coupled with a plea for tolerance of each religion for the other while under- standing that they are irremediably incompatible and mutually exclusive. Simply because the Christian does not UNDERSTAND the objections from Judaism does not mean they are not there. You still don't have to persecute us, condescend to us, be arrogant toward us, placate us, presume your rightness and our wrongness outside your own circles, etc. In fact, in the area of tolerance, you COULD even become active in ostracizing your peers who are intolerant of us (as some of you are trying to do).