Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site trwrba.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!trwrba!jnelson From: jnelson@trwrba.UUCP (John T. Nelson) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: A pridefull man's reaction to a Holy God? (infinitly long) Message-ID: <1086@trwrba.UUCP> Date: Mon, 5-Nov-84 19:43:20 EST Article-I.D.: trwrba.1086 Posted: Mon Nov 5 19:43:20 1984 Date-Received: Thu, 8-Nov-84 00:47:51 EST References: <516@watdcsu.UUCP>, <246@qantel.UUCP> <1044@trwrba.UUCP>, <268@qantel.UUCP> Organization: TRW EDS, Redondo Beach, CA Lines: 197 [Ken Nicholls] I gave my answer to this in another posting. When I child is old enough to no the difference between right and wrong, and to make a choice between the two, he is old enough to understand God's plan, and to make the correct choice. I beleive children who die before reaching this knowledge are taken to be with the Lord. However, the natural desire to rebel is in a man at the time of birth. [John T. Nelson] And when a child reaches that age what if he does NOT make the right choice? Are you saying that every child since Adam and Eve has necessarily made "the wrong choice." Exactly WHAT choice is this? Seems quite vague to me. I am aware of no one who has made such a conscious choice (including myself). It seems ludicrous to think that no one - in all of human history - has made the proper choice between good and evil. This record should tell you something about the validity of your above statements. On the other hand, if it is not in man's nature to make the right choice then we STILL don't have free will. Its like telling a full-grown lion that he has it in his power to make a choice between desiring yummmy bloody meat, or straw (yech). Clearly it is not in his nature to make a choice of this sort. It would be unfair to expect anything else of him then to go out and hunt down his food on the hoof. Which means we really DON'T have any choices to make of our own free will. Let's assume that God said, "ALL deserve to die... and I'm going to give Ken Nichols the gun that is going to kill all of you." I'm glad God does not give man things like these to do. I doubt that I could do such a thing. But you already HAVE. By consciously advocating and aiding such behavior, you have sinned as much as if you had pulled the trigger yourself. By giving man free will, God HAS given men "things like these to do." He certainly gave Christ things to do that Christ had no choice in. He also told Abraham to kill his own son, so don't look aghast when he asks YOU to do something contrary to your image of God. God, however, created us, and can take any life He gave away. I gave my childern life, but that doesn't give me the right to take it away from them for any reason. And I wouldn't, because I love them too much. That's the kind of love and respect that your God manages to avoid although its what he advocates. Those who chose not to follow will not escape punishment. I wish I could be nicer about it, but that's what it says in the Bible. And that's the ONLY statement that you have made that can be given any real creedence... "but that's what it says in the Bible." And just what ARE you going to tell the mothers of the sons who are condemned? How do you intend to console them? How would you feel if God condemned your best friend, or your spouse? Only a monster would advocate putting people to death because of their supposed inability to fulfill a particular creed or belief. I would tell the mothers how they could be saved from the judgement to come. It wouldn't be easy, but I would have to. I was refering to the mothers who had ALREADY been accepted into heaven, and their sons who had already been condemned to the eternal fires. How can you possibly convince them that THEY deserve heaven, but their sons and daughters did not? I guess that just about raps it up for Peter too. Peter, who betrayed Christ THREE TIMES, yet upon whom Christ said he would build his church! People are not the automatons that you think they are. They WILL object if they have any spirit or love of life left in them! It would be a dreary world-to-come indeed if it were filled with such non-humans. But let me guess... God will wipe away all dissent... God only condemns those that choose not to obey. He is justified in this. You haven't shown us WHY he is justified in doing so. Its one thing to say that the Bible tells us it is so and that God has the power to do so. But it is quite a different matter to tell us that somehow only God has the right to take away life. Your arguments are all quickly boiling down to Biblical infallibility. Your last sentence is again showing the pride I was speaking of earlier. You are to proud to believe something that doesn't make perfect sense to you. Wrong... I don't believe in YOU Mr. Nicholls. Like other fired-up believers you are so quick to label me, and then tell me what all of my faults are. I have commented only upon what YOU have freely disclosed to the net. My innermost beliefs have never been disclosed, although you are quick to make judgement on them. Please tell us more... you might include my most passionate beliefs along with major faults and a quick sketch of my overall behavior. Don't be too quick to judge others. Many have entertained angels and not realized it. Entertainment is a good word for it too. I don't desire death... You desire eternal punishment and death for people, not for the sin. God is not a man, that you can pin Him down with human terms. God IS a man... his name is Jesus Christ. This is not a dictatorial God who bellows orders and expects them to be obeyed... he is a God who was willing to tell us WHY he does the things he does and to listen to man's comments. Why do you think that Christ spent so much time talking WITH people, huh? If God REALLY wants us to know him, then he had better expect a lot of "rebellious" questions. If he wants obedience, then he should raise the stones up as sons of Abraham... obedient to his law and word. Not genocide, justice. Men deserve whatever they get. Thus is the punishment for those rebel scum that dare to defy the Empire! After all, it's the empire that calls the shots in this galaxy... and if you don't obey, you deserve whatever you get. That includes having you planet and all of your people fried. For a wise and wonderfull God why does he have to throw out the baby with the bath-water? To fulfill some hateful need of man's I suspect. God did dispose of the sin. Jesus Christ's death on the cross took that sin away. All God asks is that we accept that gift, and serve Him with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength. God apparently did not dispose of the sin for those that are to be condemned to hell... or are those only the screams of sins I hear down there? So my original question remains unanswered... why can he see fit to take away your sin, but not that of someone even though he is unwilling. After all, he's a perfect and all-powerful God... he can do ANYTHING. Also, you have failed to show HOW Jesus Christ's dying on the cross, in ANY way shape or form takes away sin... unless it is simply a ritual slaughter... in which case it STILL doesn't explain why God cannot take away sin without killing off the man. A few hours on the cross doesn't seem like compensatory damages to me. Pride has nothing to do with it. You can't accept the fact that your God might be wrong, so your knee-jerk reaction is to label any and all objections as "prideful man's" response. How neat and tidy. You want to be right, so you call Him wrong, is this your aim? No... I want the truth, so I call YOU wrong. Sounds just like pride to me. It sounds like pride to you because you label everyone as being caught up in their own pride. Your problem is that you have taken up a belief which you are now trying to defend with whatever evidence fits your already preconcieved notions. Now if you REALLY wanted to know the truth, you would form your beliefs based UPON the evidence. That's the way of the truth. Your entire article is a classic example of a prideful christian taking great pleasure from the thought that the world will one day be purged of all forms of life not conforming to a particular belief. The world will be purged of sin, and those who run in sin. Do I really need to draw parallels with Adolph Hitler here? Yes? What will I lose if God doesn't exist? Not much. You will have lost everything that makes life worthwhile. You will have, in fact, squandered your life on foolishness. By insisting that this life is worth shit and the next life will be infinitly better, you not only run the risk of piddling this life away and staring into the depths of oblivion upon your death; but you also run the risk of offending a God, for whom you have claimed to speak for. You, on the other hand, stand to lose alot if you God does exist, and you have not obeyed His word. Oh do *I* (on the hand of the goats) stand to loose a lot now? As if YOU (Ken Nicholls) spokesperson for God in any way knew my innermost beliefs and thoughts. Such arrogance! Such shallow appraisal! After all, you wouldn't be giving such warnings to other believers, so I MUST be a sinner, right? Hey Speak... you should find this amusing... - John