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From: teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Re: sinner by birth, sinner by choice
Message-ID: <909@aecom.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 6-Nov-84 16:17:48 EST
Article-I.D.: aecom.909
Posted: Tue Nov  6 16:17:48 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 8-Nov-84 06:45:57 EST
References: <575@watdcsu.UUCP> <275@qantel.UUCP>
Organization: Albert Einstein Coll. of Med., NY
Lines: 67

> >> 1. [Admit] you are a sinner by birth and by choice, and that you can nothing
> >>     to get rid of your sin.   
> > 
> > If I am a sinner by birth, then I have had no *choice* in the matter.  
> > Make up your mind:  are we sinners by birth, or are we sinners by choice?
> > 
> > 	David Canzi
> 
> This is a very difficult concept to explain, but let me give it a shot.  You
> are a sinner by birth by the original sin of Adam which caused all men to have
> a nature contrary to God's will.  However, you still choose to sin.  If you are
> tempted to commit a sin, you make the choice whether to do so or not.  There
> is no such thing as 'The devil made me do it.'  
> 
> The same kind of thing applies when speaking of salvation.  A man can chose to
> try and find God, the God of the Bible.  Chances are, the Holy Spirit will
> reward a man in this search by opening his eyes to the scriptures so that he
> might see the truth of Jesus Christ's redemptive work on the cross.  Without
> the Holy Spirit, no man can fully see how to be saved.
> 
> What I meant when I said that there is nothing that we can do to be saved was
> that doing 'good works' and the like can't save you.  Even seeking after God
> can't save you, but it is the best way to start if you wish to know the truth
> about the Bible.  
> 
> Even after the Holy Spirit shows a man the truth of the Bible, a man still has
> to make a choice about whether to believe it or not.
> --
> 
> "...holding forth the                             Ken Nichols
>  word of life..." Phil. 2:16                      ...!ucbvax!dual!qantel!ken
> ----------------
    I am new to net.religion and have been amused by the ongoing discussion
about salvation etc. Being an orthodox Jew, my background in other religions
is weak, so if I say something horrible do not get too upset, just answer me as
kindly as possible. I have no malice at heart but rather just an interest in 
other people's beliefs.

    Now for my questions.

    1. If the only way to salvation is through jesus, what did everyone before
him do? Are they to be damned for something they didn't even know would event-
ually exist? If not, then how can someone today who never found out about 
christianity be damned? He should be no worse than someone who preceeded the
whole thing.

    2. I would feel like an utterly useless, helpless person if the only way
I could atone for my sins was to get someone else's help ( even jesus ). Why
can't I approach G-D by myself and ask for myself. Why the intermediary?Also
if my nature is inherently evil, why punish me for it? On the day of judge-
ment, I would feel very comfortable going to G-D and saying,'How could you
punish me for acting in the way You created me? After all You creaed me evil
so how can I be punished for living that way?'.

    There are other questions I have but they will wait for a future article.
Please do not answer me if you will say that I must accept jesus in order to
understand because that isn't an answer. And don't call me a heretic or other
,  nastier names because I am human and have feeling that get hurt. Just be kind
and considerate to me and all others in this group and the world will be a 
much nicer place to live. I'll believe what I want, you believe what you want,
and I'm sure that if we are sincere in our own beliefs, and tolerant of other
beliefs, that I7ll be meeting you some time in the future, in heated discussion,and not in a heated climate.

				eliyahu teitz.


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