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From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent)
Newsgroups: net.religion,net.motss
Subject: Re: David Brunson, come on down
Message-ID: <1450@pucc-h>
Date: Wed, 7-Nov-84 03:21:06 EST
Article-I.D.: pucc-h.1450
Posted: Wed Nov  7 03:21:06 1984
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From Stan Switzer (ihnp4!u1100s!sjs):

> As I understand it, the Christian line goes as follows

>   - We are all sinners, and therefore damned.
>   - Christ died for those sins. (sacrificial lamb, etc.)
>   - To be saved, you "accept Christ" (whatever that means --
>	 the Holy Spirit has something to do with this.)
>   - Otherwise, one is contemptible in God's eyes.

I prefer to look at it another way:  Humans have chosen to break their
relationship with God and exalt themselves.  They need God's help to humble
themselves, which humbling is necessary for a proper relationship with God
(after all, we are, actually, less than God).  God loves us so much that He
came to earth so He could experience self-humbling and self-sacrifice to the
fullest in order that He might then share with us His experience and enable
us to humble ourselves and enter a relationship with God.  Those who do not
choose to accept this help, this relationship, will remain outside of it by
their own choice; but, alas, they will regret it when they find themselves
utterly alone after death, shut out from God's light and warmth -- and what 
will make it unutterably more painful is knowing that it's by their own choice!
I don't see God as condemning people to hell, or contemning them, so much as
merely being consistent with Himself; He chose to give us free will in the
beginning, and so it will be at the end.

> IN PARTICULAR, A HOMOSEXUAL WHO IS NOT SAVED IS NO MORE CONTEMPTIBLE THAN
> AN ATHEIST (or a Mormon, or a Jew,...)

...or someone into any one of a long list of sins.

> I take it as a very bad sign that no Christians have fulfilled their
> RESPONSIBILITY to call Brunson to task.  When Brunson speaks, he claims
> to be representing the Christian viewpoint.  If YOU do not rebuke him,
> then I, and the rest of the free-thinking net will have to assume that
> you approve of Brunson, and that he does, in fact, speak for you.

I confess to having fallen down on the job somewhat (though I think I was
on vacation during the time frame of some of Brunson's articles).  I did
mention in passing that I think Jesus, had He been an employer, would have
hired a homosexual (though that homosexual might well have chosen to change
as a result of working with Jesus).  I would not be at all surprised if some
of the "publicans and sinners" that the Pharisees denounced Jesus for
associating with were homosexuals, who liked Jesus because He accepted them
as human beings.

In other words, I do indeed disagree with Brunson's denunciation of
homosexuals.  (This is partly because I have at times struggled with some
homosexual feelings myself, though I've never acted on them; so I have at
least a little inside information.  Also I am casually acquainted with
several gays, and they are not, as far as I can tell, rabidly bent on
converting everyone to gaydom, contrary to some stereotypes.  But even if
they were, God loves them and asks us to be His representatives in
communicating that love.)

> Furthermore, it does not seem impossible to me that a homosexual might just
> be a Christian too (however, masochism IS a perversion).

Not at all impossible.  Certainly many homosexuals, after becoming Christians,
are enabled to become (happier) heterosexuals.  But I recently saw a book
(alas, I've forgotten the title & author) which was a series of letters from
a homosexual Christian man to a pastor or some such person, wherein the gay
discussed his struggles with his exclusively (at least initially) homosexual
desires; the change is not always instantaneous.

I assume your parenthetical note on masochism was intended to have a :-).