Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: notesfiles Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!acf4!greenber From: greenber@acf4.UUCP Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: Association for Women in Computing Message-ID: <10400016@acf4.UUCP> Date: Tue, 6-Nov-84 23:32:00 EST Article-I.D.: acf4.10400016 Posted: Tue Nov 6 23:32:00 1984 Date-Received: Thu, 8-Nov-84 20:02:32 EST References: <4027@tektronix.UUCP> Organization: New York University Lines: 102 Nf-ID: #R:tektronix:-402700:acf4:10400016:000:5836 Nf-From: acf4!greenber Nov 6 23:32:00 1984 decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot says: > Of course, it never crossed your cute little mind that these groups were > organized for purposes other than "the advancement of any 'one' class or > 'type'". What about this idea--they're organized as a forum to discuss common > interests. I'll never admit my mind is cute.... They might be formed to discuss common interests. But are you now stating that all these groups, including AWC (or whatever) might have interests that are separate and distinct from the rest of our population? If that is the case, then I have no problem with clubs that are set up to advance the interests of one group over the other: the Ku Klux Klan comes to mind immediately. Why these good 'ole boys have common interests --- and they happen to include jews and blacks and others, too. In fact their "Klub's" is primary concern is about jews and blacks and others! I'm sure that they get into some really interesting discussions, too. Not in THEIR best interests, though. > Gee, what would the Jewish Club discuss? Or what would the Gay Student Union > ever have to talk about? For the most part Jewish and gay stuff, I suppose. That's to be expected from a biased group. And I have no problem accepting them as a biased group, asking for and receiving special privledge. Just don't go yelling about how "we're discriminated against" when just by having a club that fosters this "separate but equal" crap you yourself are discriminating. Do women have special interests regarding computers? Careful! If the answer is no, then why have a special club?? If the answer is yes, then you certainly should expect to be treated differently, since you are proclaiming that there is something different. > (and where I went to school, such an organization didn't restrict > it's membership--what are they going to do, demand proof?) It would certainly make the initiatian ceremony more interesting!! I joined many of the groups I outlined in my past article. I found them to be formed for one reason: to promote the special interests of a particular group. This was coming from my "tax" (student fund) dollar, and *I* was not to benifit. Sorry. I just can't cope with the idea of people asking me to donate to their worthy cause, and then telling me that *I'm* part of the problem. > And, of course, equality is here, so there's no discrimination, so there's > absolutely no need for gays, blacks, jews, or women to want to gather and > possibly discuss any discrimination they may have experienced. Obviously > they're all nuts, and should instead be attending group therapy to adjust > themselves to "reality". No, equality is not here. Yet. And there are problems with all of our so-called minority groups. Being a member of two of them, I have my desire for equality, too. But sitting in circles and beating on a big drum didn't do much then, and still isn't. Talking about problems within the group that is having that problem is a little mastabatory (does such a word really exist? If so, did I spell it right?), don't you think. The sad part of these special interest groups is that you neglect to solve the problem outside of the group. If there must be AWC, then there must be a problem with another group that just doesn't seem to listen to the needs of women. So instead of trying to change that group, you splinter off into a separate group?? Doesn't make much sense, and doesn't appear (to me, at least) to really be facing a problem. CRTs cause radiation damage to fetuses? Quick, lets run to our group and talk about how horrid this situation is. Psssst! We'll pass a resolution about how awful it is, and then what??? If there is a problem to humankind, lets all work on it together, not in these ridiculous little groups that spring up. > Was similar action taken against any clubs organized around hobbies? Nope. Not unless they were trying to make some statement that was really a political view. You see I sorta feel that hobby groups that organize around any given interest (like, say, computers) are inherently non-biased and non-sexist, unlike sexist/baised groups like, say, AWC. > After all, who do these people think they are, organizing themselves with > directions to discussing things in which **I** have absolutely no interest > (not being genetically/societally/by-choice a railroad afficionado)! They'd > do better to integrate themselves into "normal" society, and forget about > their individual differences. No, you'd be better off trying to integrate yourself into a society that really shouldn't have groups that are formed to advance one group over another. If instead you feel you must join such groups, then don't complain when a group forms that is designed specifically to advance everyone elses interests EXCEPT YOURS. And you contradict yourself again: There really are "individual differences" or class differences? If they are individual, then you will join clubs that only have you for a member (how does that Woody Alan/ Groucho Marx joke go?), and then really don't have a need to exist. If there are class differences, than you have already given up the right for equality, since you have already said: "We are different, and expect to be treated as different." If you say that, it doesn't mean that you'll be treated better, just different. Different pay scales, career paths, etc. Don't complain: you have your club to complain to, right? You'll be sure to pass a resolution at the next scheduled meeting, or will you call a special meeting? > I just *love* it when people expose their prejudices in the net! Alas, I just hate it. I really pray for equality one day soon. If nothing else, it will reduce net traffic. Double sigh. Ross M. Greenberg @ NYU ----> allegra!cmcl2!acf4!greenber <----