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From: mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (SIMON)
Newsgroups: net.music
Subject: Jazz and/in US society (response to responses)
Message-ID: <142@mhuxr.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 26-Nov-84 20:20:48 EST
Article-I.D.: mhuxr.142
Posted: Mon Nov 26 20:20:48 1984
Date-Received: Tue, 27-Nov-84 04:25:41 EST
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Lot of articles and mail. Great, some people listen and care.

Was set to respond at length to Soron, but Fehling did most
of that work for me, so I will only address some specific points
made by Soron and Lincoln:

Miles Davis as a creature of Bill Evans:
See any of the following:
	- Birth of the Cool (1949) admittedly music that GIL Evans
had a lot to do with
	- Walkin' (1954) which to quote Ralph Gleason "called all
the children home" (from cool excursions)
	- Kind of Blue (1959) That's where your argument comes from,
but I remember reading an interview with Bill Evans (ca 1977) where
he acknowledged Miles as the inspiration for his playing. I am somehow
inclined to believe Evans over Lincoln
	- Filles of Kilimanjaro (1968) a brilliant LP of elliptical,
understated music that owes as much to Wayne Shorter as to anyone
	- Bitches Brew (1970) Bill Evans was NEVER so funky
I think I'll stop here. I could go on but what's the use.

French Jazz:
Take the specific (Rheinhardt/Grappelli). Do you think that
Django is a more important or influential guitarist than Charlie Christian?

Take the general: French and European audiences have been a lifesaver
to many generations of american jazz musicians that could not make aliving
at home. However, this passion has not extended to homegrown players.
To wit: the great drummer Andre Humair, (to a lesser extent) the pianist
Martial Solal, all were ignored. An exception:
Niels Henning Orsted Pedersen, the excellent bassist.

Jazzmen not covering country:
Please see Sonny Rollins' "Way Out West" (Contemporary 1957),
and Miles' version of "Billy Boy" (on "Milestones", Columbia 1958),
just to think of two examples off the top of my head. There is also a
Duke Ellington suite, although I can't think of it now, and an Oliver
Nelson version of "Hoedown", although Copland was a "classical" composer.

Jazz as "culture" or lack thereof:
You are in effect agreeing with me (Lincoln).
People (captains of industry especially) who support a genre without
carefully weighing it are passing judgement on the cover without
reading the book.
Considering the fuss made over Benny Goodman and Dave Brubeck,
two good but not great musicians (compared to, say, Duke Ellingon and 
Thelonious Monk),I have to think that is because the cover is a bit too dark
for what is considered acceptable as proper culture.
(strangely, nobody commented on this factor in jazz's non popularity)

Worthy white musicians:
never said there are no good white jazzmen, but that the major
innovators have been black. Who are the white players that
rank with Joplin, Armstrong, Ellington, Bechet, Basie, Parker,
Monk, Gillespie, Davis, Coleman, Taylor, Hawkins, Young, or
closer to today, Murray, Threadgill, Rivers, Shorter, etc?

Can't boogie to Jazz after Bebop:
Not even counting the master of funk, Miles (he should be obvious)
or his various disciples, please check out David Murray ("Ming",
"Home", "Murray's steps", "Morning Song", etc), Henry
Threadgill ("Just the facts and pass the bucket", others with Air)
or anything by Jimmy Smith, Lee Morgan, James "Blood" Ulmer,
Jack DeJohnnette, Arthur Blythe, etc.

"It don't mean a thing, if it ani't got that swing"
Marcel Simon
mhuxr!mfs