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From: lab@qubix.UUCP (Q-Bick)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Were the German people in Nazi Germany Christians?
Message-ID: <1539@qubix.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 13-Nov-84 02:05:39 EST
Article-I.D.: qubix.1539
Posted: Tue Nov 13 02:05:39 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 15-Nov-84 01:08:31 EST
References: <1695@ucf-cs.UUCP>
Organization: Quadratix ... Quartix
Lines: 62

> In discussing the undercurrents of antisemitism in America, I asserted
> that the German people in Nazi Germany were primarily Christians and as
> church-going as most countries (stated a little differently but same
> idea). I had never run across any serious attempts to show evidence to
> refute this notion. Larry Bickford has offerred some quotes which the
> reader may wish to review on the jewish net to which I will address
> myself.

A good ground for discussion.

> Two of the three quotes offerred (the first and the third) are
> apparently nothing more concrete that stated goals of the a small elite
> in the German government. Granted that I was not aware of this, however
> at least at this point, I am still not at all persuaded by this scant
> evidence that this was even remotely true for the masses of German
> people in Nazi Germany. Furthermore, since the Fourth Reich was to have
> been the Fourth Holy Roman Empire, I find these quotes somewhat
> contradictory to the German goals which were also widely published.

["Fourth Reich"? "Fourth Holy Roman Empire"? The Third Reich and the Holy
Roman Empire, those I have heard of. But "Fourth"?]

> The second quote, when read carefully, can be taken to support my
> assertion that this was a church-going Christian people which forced
> Prof. Hauer to "confess the primal religious will of the German people".
> This seems to me to support what I've been saying rather than contradict
> it. The quote that "the struggle between Christianity and the German
> faith in the German soul is thus an event of unexpected depth" really
> says nothing decisive on the matter.

For Yiri's "carefully," read "with Yiri's paranoia."

>  Also, I will not accept the usual Christian methodology of
> presuming it is right, offering some flimsy half-relevant argument and
> then concluding "See, you can't PROVE I'm wrong THEREFORE I'm right!"

And so it is with Yiri's ideas about Christian anti-semitism...

The quotes I gave in net.religion.jewish are cited in Wilbur Smith's
_Therefore Stand_, pp 86-88 and 536. He provides the references:

Hitler's contempt for Christianity was expressed to Dr. Herman
Rauschning, at one time president of the Danzig senate, and a member of
the secret party conclaves from 1932-1935. This was published in Hugh
Martin's _Christian Counter-Attack: Europe's Churches Against Nazism_,
p.16 (continuing on to page 17, Martin also discusses Mussolini).

Professor Hauer's and the GFM's remarks are available in Hauer & Karl
Heim's _The German Faith Movement_ (published in 1937). Smith also notes
"On the entire subject of the attitude of Germany toward Christianity,
particular reference should be made to the large 16-page pamphlet
_Watchman What of the Night_, by Stanley High; "Rosenberg's Myth and
Nazi Propagandism," by Leonard de Moor, in _The Calvin Forum_, April
1938 pp.200-203.

And, just for skeptics and the super-paranoid:		    /\/\/\
			_Therefore, Stand_ was published in >1944< !!!
-- 
		The Ice Floe of Larry Bickford
		{amd,decwrl,sun,idi,ittvax}!qubix!lab

You can't settle the issue until you've settled how to settle the issue.