Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site aecom.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!unc!mcnc!decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!godot!harvard!seismo!cmcl2!rna!rocky2!cucard!aecom!teitz From: teitz@aecom.UUCP Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Re: Re: sinner by birth, sinner by choice Message-ID: <949@aecom.UUCP> Date: Thu, 15-Nov-84 13:27:59 EST Article-I.D.: aecom.949 Posted: Thu Nov 15 13:27:59 1984 Date-Received: Mon, 19-Nov-84 02:42:27 EST References: <575@watdcsu.UUCP> <275@qantel.UUCP> <909@aecom.UUCP> <305@qantel.UUCP> Organization: Albert Einstein Coll. of Med., NY Lines: 123 > In article <909@aecom.UUCP> teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) writes: > > > > > Now for my questions. > > > > 1. If the only way to salvation is through jesus, what did everyone before > >him do? Are they to be damned for something they didn't even know would event- > >ually exist? If not, then how can someone today who never found out about > >christianity be damned? He should be no worse than someone who preceeded the > >whole thing. > > In the very beginning (Adam through Moses) men spoke directly to God. When they > were walking close with God, His Spirit would indwell them from time to time > enabling then to perform certain tasks. During the time of Moses, prophecy > concerning the Messiah began to arise. The Jews of the old Testament could look > forward to this comming Messiah, and in this "their faith was counted as > righteousness". The Gentiles at this time were all damned, sorry to say. God > had not yet included then in His plan. Isreal was the chosen nation of God. > > Most Jews knew enough about the comming Messiah to put their faith in the work > He would accomplish on the cross. Their basis for righteousness at this time > was in obeying the laws of Moses. They did not need to have a full knowledge of > Christ during this time in history. > Sorry to disagree with you, but unless I wasn't taught very much about my own religion, and I have been studying it intensively for 10 years, then there was no mention of the coming of a messiah, especially in the time of Moses. Moses was a great leader who took the Children of Israel from Egypt, brought them before Mt. Sinai where they received the Torah, and became Jews. The Jews were supposed to enter the land of Canaan, take it over and dwell there a an autonomous state under the leadership of G-D. In fact, in the book of Samuel ( 12th & 14Th chaps, I think ), when the Jews asked for a king, they were rebuked for no realizing hat G-D was their only king. Why then would G-D want to sent a messiah? To make problems for Him- self? Only after the destruction of the Temples was it necessary to have a messiah to gather the Jews together for the Third Eternal Temple. > About your third question. God has placed within every man an inward knowledge > about Himself. This is known as conscience. Man can also see the evidences > that nature gives about God. If a man recognizes that their must be something > more to life than just this earth and himself, he has begun his quest, shall we > say, for God. God, being omnipotent, can recognize the search that has begun > in this man's heart. God can then send someone his way to tell him of the > plan of salvation. Yes, I really believe that He can do this. > To this I agree, and it is a concept in the Talmud, 'If one starts on the path to repentance, G-D will assist him'. However, this doesn't mean that the salvation will come only with someone else to speak for me. I will do it on my own. Why do I need an intermediary. If Jesus is God then why do I have to ask him to speak to G-D for me. Am I not talking to God directly by talking to Jesus ? > > > > 2. I would feel like an utterly useless, helpless person if the only way > >I could atone for my sins was to get someone else's help ( even jesus ). Why > >can't I approach G-D by myself and ask for myself. Why the intermediary?Also > >if my nature is inherently evil, why punish me for it? On the day of judge- > >ment, I would feel very comfortable going to G-D and saying,'How could you > >punish me for acting in the way You created me? After all You creaed me evil > >so how can I be punished for living that way?'. > > Anything you attempt to do to atone for your sins would be utterly useless. > No offense intended. Nothing you can do will atone for your sins. Jesus is > now the Great High Priest of the order of Melchizedech (sp?). All men need > to come through Him. There is no need for any sacrifices because His was the > ultimate sacrifice. Even in the times of the Temple, the High Priest only worked one day a year ( only on Yom Kippur was he required to do the service ). And, the Bible says 'Because this day will atone for your sins'( here I paraphrase, as usual I don't have the exact qoute at hand, sorry ). The day itself atones for our sins, not all of them. Those between man and his fellow man aren't taken care of. Those, the person must approach the man against whom he transgressed directly and beg his forgiveness. If the second man forgives, then G-D accepts this as enough. Back to my main point. We do not need the High Priest in order to have our sins atoned for. If we did, we'd all be in big trouble( again this is the Jewish belief [ as I see it ]).So , again, why Jesus? Also, G-D abhorred child sacrifice. Molech was worshipped by child sacrifiece ( see Biblical Archeology Review - an article last year about child sacrifice at Carthage. [ BTW, BAR is a Christian magazine, so they aren't trying to defend any religion ]). G-D warns in the Bible not to worship Molech. If G-D is so against child sacrifice, why did He kill His 'only son'? The prophets ( latter prophets, I don't remember which one, again sorry no source ) ask, 'Does G-D want thousands of sacrifices ... G-D only wants that man should listen to His word and that man walk humble in His ways'. So G-d does not want sacrifices. He wants people to listen to Him. Would He then go and kill His 'son'. I believe that we are all G-D's children, each and every one of us. Does that elevate me above you or anyone else ? No. We each must strive for what we believe is the truth and if we abide by what we think is G-D's word, none of us will burn. > > I don't think you could say that to God very comfortably. God did not create > evil, as I hear more and more people say. Evil is not a thing, it's a state of > being. Men's minds are filled with evil. The evil is the rebellious attitude > against God that we acquired, not from God, but from Satan and Adam. > > God created man and the world. Sin entered after He was finished. > Sorry to disagree again. I don't believe G-D finished anything. He's still hard at work making sure the world runs according to His plan. If G-D created, instilled in us, a conscience, then why not say He gave us an evil inclination too. Our job is to try and keep the evil at bay by using our conscience. The Talmud (you guessed, no source )states, 'G-D created the evil inclination and He created the Bible as a medication to it ( to combat the evil ). Man was and is not in any way more inclined to evil or good, except maybe by social adjustment. But, man whrn he is born, has a clean slate. He will be called to judgement, at the end of his days, to see how he fared in this world. > "...holding forth the Ken Nichols > word of life..." Phil. 2:16 ...!ucbvax!dual!qantel!ken > ----------------- Thanks for the pleasant reply. It's good to see that people on the net have manners. The problem we must avoid is responding virulently to a person who attacks us. If we respond with harsh words, the antagonist won't bother to listen. If we treat everyone with respect then everyone will gain. As the Talmud says, 'The words of the wise are heard with gentleness', only when they are spoken gently will your words be heeded. Eliyahu Teitz. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***