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From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Jones on Sargent on speaking in tongues
Message-ID: <1494@pucc-h>
Date: Fri, 16-Nov-84 11:52:57 EST
Article-I.D.: pucc-h.1494
Posted: Fri Nov 16 11:52:57 1984
Date-Received: Tue, 20-Nov-84 23:44:56 EST
References: <1469@pucc-h.UUCP>, <22200005@ea.UUCP>
Organization: Purdue University Computing Crypt
Lines: 59

>> = me
>  = James Jones (ea!jejones)

>> How do you explain the gifts of the Holy Spirit -- particularly the most
>> common one, most commonly called "speaking in tongues"?  How do you explain
>> the fact that in May, 1972, a man laid his hands on me and prayed, and I
>> received the ability to speak without conscious thought in a language I don't
>> believe I've ever heard?  And I'm not the only Christian of my acquaintance
>> with this gift.

> ... the point to make here is, as Rich Rosen has pointed out in the past,
> people believe what they want to believe, or in this case, hear what they
> want to hear. There was a fellow who did an experiment in which low-volume
> random de garbage was played for people in a context where human speech
> was expected. One of the subjects, a native of Eastern Europe, burst into
> tears, and exclaimed that she'd never heard her mother tongue since she
> was a child.

The point I'm making is that I'm saying stuff I'm not consciously wanting to
say.  Really, my conscious mind can be thinking about some other topic while
I'm speaking in tongues; the conscious mind is not driving the mouth at all.
[Some might say this is true even when I'm speaking my native language. :-)]

And what does that experiment prove?  Only what you want to believe.  All 
it says is that some random garbage can sound like some Eastern European
language if it is not heard clearly.  It does not disprove Christians'
claims about speaking in tongues at all.

> Andy Kaufman did glossolalia all the time as Latka Gravas.

Again, the mere fact that it can be faked doesn't prove that it is always
a fake.

> how do you know it was a real language if you hadn't heard it?

That's something I have to take on faith (why do so many people in this
newsgroup have such contempt for faith?).  I have noticed that at times
when I am having an "ultimate psychotherapy" (intensive prayer) session, and
I come to some part of myself that needs help but that I can't figure out
how to pray through, I pray in tongues instead, and often I am enabled to
see a solution to the problem.  In other words, there is some indication
that I am saying something that makes sense.  Also, it isn't exactly random
garbage; I've noticed similar words and sound patterns recurring over the
years; it sounds as though it very likely could be a language.

But I'm not sure, so let's take another example.  Once Oral Roberts was
conducting some sort of meeting where he preached, etc.  After the main
presentation, Roberts was with one particular man.  Roberts began speaking
in tongues.  The man interrupted him and informed him that he (Roberts) was
speaking in Hebrew, talking to God about the man and his soul, etc.  The man
was quite astounded and impressed when Roberts replied that he had never
learned to speak Hebrew, and that his speech in Hebrew was entirely by the
power of God.

-- 
-- Jeff Sargent
{decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq
"I'm not asking for anyone's bleeding charity."
"Then do.  At once.  Ask for the Bleeding Charity."