Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site ucf-cs.UUCP
Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!yiri
From: yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: conversion to Christianity
Message-ID: <1754@ucf-cs.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 22-Nov-84 09:53:27 EST
Article-I.D.: ucf-cs.1754
Posted: Thu Nov 22 09:53:27 1984
Date-Received: Sun, 25-Nov-84 02:41:36 EST
References: <12800004@acf4.UUCP> <1741@ucf-cs.UUCP>, <150@psivax.UUCP>
Organization: UCF, Orlando, FL
Lines: 65


In article <1741@ucf-cs.UUCP> yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) writes:
>Why would anyone want to convert to a counterfeit? Can't they read?
>Why don't they look into the matter in some depth. They are obviously
>not very knowledgeable in Judaism nor Christianity. If they feign
>otherwise let them speak up. Why must they sneak around? Are they
>ashamed? Deservedly so.

	You do *not* know the person involved, so how can you say
they are ignorant?  Ashamed?  Maybe not - maybe simply afraid of
this very sort of thing - derision and insults. Let us continue
our discussion of the basis of Christianity - but let us leave
alone those who are involved in deep (and probably painful)
soul-searching.

***********************
Yiri responds:
Knowing the person involved has nothing to do with the ignorance of not 
properly researching the origins of Christianity. Parkes established that 
by the 4th century christianity bore little or no resemblance to the 1st
century Jewish sect (the N'tzarim). Bagatti established that the early
Christians (as opposed to N'tzarim) were killing N'tzarim who would not
abandon Torah. Parkes established that antinomianism was inherent in
early Christianity and has been a recurrent theme ever since.  The 
Interpreter's Dictionary even concedes that the 'New Testament' was 
redacted by the Christians to conform to their notions of what was 'true'. 
There is no legitimate link between Christianity and Y'shua the Jew. Nor 
is there any legitimate link between Christianity or 'Jesus' (the 
Christian counterfeit image of the historical Y'shua) and Y'shua the 
N'tzarim or his 1st century N'tzarim followers/apprentices. It then
follows that there is no authenticate claim by a counterfeit religion
with a counterfeit of a historical Jewish figure to be a Jewish messiah.
My impression is that Christians are isolating him/her from true and
proper information of which s/he should be aware. That is deception. It
is also SCOS (standard Christian operating procedure) as exemplified
throughout history. It is also what Christians currently define as
cultish. The Baptist minister who converted to Judaism was quite public
about it prior to his conversion. (Jewish law forbids references to a
former gentile state of a Jew. Hence, you don't find Jews talking about
having been converted or identifying converts to Judaism except in
isolated cases of poor taste and ignorance of Jewish law or cases of
aliyah to Israel, marriage and the like where it is necessary. Jewish 
law was more concerned that converts not be slighted as if they were 
somehow less Jewish than born Jews.) My disdain is not for the poor
person who is being duped, rather it is for the super-dupers and their
tactics of buffering that individual from having to deal with true and
proper historical information. If the decision were really forthright
and well-considered there would be no motivation to hide. A person who
is armed with truth does not fear derision... witness the Baptist
minister who converted to Judaism and was quite public about it. He
challenged anyone and everyone to dispute these things I have presented
on the net... and, like on the net and in other scholarly circles, there
IS no logical and reasonable disputation. If your potential convert
really looks into these things s/he will not convert. Judging from the
tendency to hide the decision, I also question whether the convert has
any real understanding of Judaism or Christianity ... and is even
emotionally able to stand up and speak for himself. If so, let him/her
do it. Such a decision certainly merits withstanding such scrutiny.
Your idea of letting them alone is to feed them christian propaganda and
then for Jews to let them alone.  Have the individual contact me by mail
if they really want some references to objective information which even
scholarly Christian authors concede. Let him have information on both
sides of the picture - even though that is not SCOS.
***************************