Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site osu-eddie.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!apr!osu-eddie!karl From: karl@osu-eddie.UUCP (Karl Kleinpaste) Newsgroups: net.kids Subject: Re: school taxes Message-ID: <127@osu-eddie.UUCP> Date: Fri, 30-Nov-84 14:22:12 EST Article-I.D.: osu-eddi.127 Posted: Fri Nov 30 14:22:12 1984 Date-Received: Sat, 1-Dec-84 20:19:55 EST References: <419@hogpd.UUCP> <227@oliveb.UUCP> <601@amdahl.UUCP> Organization: Society for the Advancement of Raw Weirdness Lines: 124 ---------- >> No! Make teachers and administrators accountable to the STUDENTS, not >>to the parents or anyone else. The students should decide how to run the >>schools, because they are obviously the ones who can best decide what the >>quality of education needed to run a democracy is, since they'll be running >>it. > >I must take issue with the idea of letting students decide how to run >the schools. To me this is like letting the cat guard the canary. This >philosophy has already been tried in the late 60's and through the early >70's at the college level, under the guise of ``relevent'' [to what?] >education. Students shunned in general those courses that were either >difficult (ie required much preparation) or uninteresting. The net >result: a generation of college grads who lack certain skills and >knowledge of their past. ---------- I think a better question which should be raised is, "When should we let the kids decide what should be in their education, and how much should we let them decide?" We must concede that, eventually, the students will make their own decisions on what courses to take, when they reach college age. I went to a high school which has what is known as the Alternative Program [AP], which is a small subset of the total school population (about 150 out of about 2000) where the students have a great deal of control over what they are taught and in what manner, but they are still constrained by a number of guidelines imposed by a variety of sources, from the State Board of Education on down to the set of teachers who teach at it. The advantage which the AP gave me is that it allowed a fantastic amount of freedom of choice with respect to how much structure one got in one's education. The students could elect to do a lot of work on "contract," where a student would sit down with a teacher and discuss a particular project, usually for a 9-week period (a quarter of a school year). The student and teacher would come to an agreement which was written up in some detail; the two would state that, with the specified amount of work performed at a certain level of proficiency, the student would get thus-and-so a grade when complete. Doing remarkably better would result in better grades, and doing poorly results in lower grades. I did a lot of this sort of work, because I really like independent study (I'm working towards my MS by thesis in a project which [I hope] will be completely independent from other research in the Computer Science Dept here). There were also a large number of courses designed by students, and some of these were even run by students. For example, at the time when I was there, there was a surprisingly large number of people who were interested in flying in one way or another. There was one particular individual who was a very proficient model airplane builder/flyer (he participated in competi- tions regularly). This person got permission to teach a couple of courses in the physics of flying for a 9-week period. The only major condition for setting up a course of this type is that such courses must have an adviser, which is any of the teachers at the AP. This kept the students in check: if too many weird ideas were coming down from the students, no teacher would sponsor them. New course ideas would have to be created which a teacher would sponsor, and the students ended up with a very well-rounded education with these courses. One minor glitch with the system: due the difficulty of matching such individualized courses with subjects that the State Board understands, a course on research-paper-writing might be generalized in transcripts as just plain "composition." And, of course, students at the AP could always elect to take a couple courses from Main Campus which just weren't available at the AP. I took some intro computer programming courses at Main Campus while attending the AP. Probably the single best part (and the single most frustrating part as well) was the fact that the AP was run almost entirely by the students. Policy was decided in Town Meeting, a once- (or sometimes twice-) a-week occurrence. It was frustrating because there were attempts on several occasions to run the place by consensus vote, and you could never got 150 people to agree on anything all at once. What I'm really getting at, other than putting in an unabashed plug for my high school, is that students can in fact get a very good education on their own, as long as there are constraints placed on them by the adults around them. Students just don't have the maturity to do it entirely alone. Also, I would have to say that something like the AP would be unacceptable for anyone younger than high school as well, due to the possibility of truly impressive failures; there were a number of people at the AP who majored in sleeping, which resulted in them flunking out or being expelled. ---------- >This has bubbled its way down to the elementary level to a certain >extent, but enough to alarm people to begin a ``back-to-basics'' >movement [``traditional education'']. Students at the elementary >level have not accumulated enough information to even begin how to >decide to run a school. I believe (and support through my local PTA) >the notion of teachers accountability to the parents. ---------- Interestingly enough, so did our AP. As far as "back-to-basics" is concerned, we had our local Board of Education just drooling when we instituted a new course in basic English, required by all students, because it was realized that the level of proficiency was dropping noticeably, particularly at the AP. We did that entirely voluntarily, without any outside influence requesting it. That went over really well with the Board, for obvious reasons. As I've already said, I agree as well that elementary-age children are just not equipped to deal with this sort of a situation, and I don't recommend it at all for them. ---------- >Our local community school has a ``basics'' program in which my oldest >daughter is enrolled. Essentially, the teacher commits to the parents >to teach the child a certain set of skills, and the parents commit to >seeing that the child completes homework assignments, etc. ---------- Sounds a lot like our contracts. A good idea, I must say. ---------- >This is the third year for the program at our local school, and believe >me it has made a phenomenal difference! That elementary school used >to have a bad reputation; now parents from outside the school district >are sending their kids there! ---------- {:-)} Well, it's the 11th year for the AP! So there! {:-)} Just kidding. As a result of our AP's success, several surrounding school systems have also instituted similar programs. Good ideas tend to get copied a lot. -- From the badly beaten keyboards of best address---+ him who speaks in _*_T_y_P_e_* _f-_O-_n-_T-_s... | V Karl Kleinpaste @ Bell Labs, Columbus 614/860-5107 {cbosgd,ihnp4}!_c_b_r_m_a_!_k_k @ Ohio State University 614/422-0915 cbosgd!osu-eddie!karl