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From: ronb@tekred.UUCP (Ron Bremer )
Newsgroups: net.kids
Subject: Re: "Spanking"
Message-ID: <219@tekred.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 30-Jan-85 13:00:32 EST
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Posted: Wed Jan 30 13:00:32 1985
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From: wolit@alice.UUCP (Jan Wolitzky)
Newsgroups: net.kids
Subject: "Spanking"
Message-ID: <3349@alice.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 29-Jan-85 06:55:42 PST
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Posted: Tue Jan 29 06:55:42 1985
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>Look, violence is violence.  You wouldn't accept it if your neighbor
>hit you because you were doing something he didn't like.  Hitting your
>kid is the same thing, exactly.

Spanking is not the same as violence or child abuse.  Spanking is done
for the benifit of the child, not the parent.  Spanking is done with
love, not in a fit of anger.  Spanking is to make a child sorry for
his defiant behavior, not to torture or humiliate him.  When spanking 
becomes anything else it ceases to be spanking and moves toward violence
and abuse.

>You accept not being able to force everyone else in the world to
>submit to your will.  (At least, I hope you do!)  Why is your child
>any less privileged?

Children must learn to submit to the laws of society, be they legal,
moral, or ethical.  It is a parent's task to teach this concept and
it starts by teaching a child to submit to the rules of a home.  There
is no reason this has to be loathsome experience, anymore than teaching
him to read has to be loathsome.  It is much better to instill submission
in the home than to let the judicial system try to later.

>The sad fact is that our society denies children the basic human
>rights that we extend to everyone else.  

Actually our society does extend children basic human rights.  Just
because there is no law against spanking does not mean society has
little regard for protection of children.  A mother and father will
fight for the welfare of their children much more readily than a
next door neighbor.  Social norms are more powerful than written laws
(re. the 55 MPH speed limit) and in our society child abuse is repugnant
to the vast majority.

>We teach our kids even when we don't intend to.  Do we want to teach
>them that rights are determined by who has the physical power, that
>violence is a legitimate way to get someone to do what you want?
>"Spanking" -- child beating -- has been around for a long time, it's
>true:  look at the world out there and see if we haven't reaped just
>what's been sown.

You want to teach your child that people with authority are to be
respected, and unless there is very good reason not to, obeyed.  The
parent has authority over the child, as do his teachers.  Although
this authority can be abused, that is no reason to throw it out the
window.  Your conclusion that the world is the way it is because 
parents and teachers spanked generations of children is a shot is the
dark.  I know many who would say it was because parents became too
permissive and failed to teach their children the value of limits and
authority.  It is much more complicated than either view, but that is
another discussion.

Although child abuse is a going problem which must by solved for the
benifit of all, outlawing spanking will not eliminate child abuse.
It will mean that there will be more yelling, ridicule, mental torture
to try to discipline children.  It is against the law to beat your
wife, yet wife abuse is also on the increase.  One of my children, age 8,
choose a spanking over taking away sweets for a week.  (She had taken
some candy after being told no to, and then lied about it when confronted)
In our home, once the punishment is given, the offense is forgotten.
Children like to get back to normal as soon as possible and spanking
is a quick, if slightly painful, way to get things right.

By the way, I don't spank my children very often, but I think it is a
necessary and healthy part of raising children.  I have a happy and
loving relationship with all my children, I like it that way.

And I said I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, oh well.

Flames to Ron Bremer
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