Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site isucs1.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!stolaf!umn-cs!isucs1!notes From: notes@isucs1.UUCP Newsgroups: net.legal Subject: Re: NYC subway hero Message-ID: <272@isucs1.UUCP> Date: Sun, 27-Jan-85 02:01:09 EST Article-I.D.: isucs1.272 Posted: Sun Jan 27 02:01:09 1985 Date-Received: Mon, 4-Feb-85 04:45:10 EST Sender: notes@isucs1.UUCP Organization: Iowa State University Lines: 66 Nf-ID: #R:cadre:-12100:isucs1:8700001:000:3415 Nf-From: isucs1!drew Jan 25 22:22:00 1985 John Locke in his second treastise of government had quite a bit to say about the right to self defense. "17. And hence it is that he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power does thereby put himself into a state of war with him, it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life; for I have reason to conclude that he who would get me into his power without my consent would use me as he please when he got me there, and destroy me, too, when he had a fancy to it; for nobody can desire to have me in his ab- solute power unless it be to compel me by force to that which is against the right of my freedom, i.e., make me a slave. To be free from such a force is the only security of my preservation; and reason bids me look on him as an enemy to my preservation who would take away that freedom which is a fence to it; so that he who makes an attempt to enslave me thereby puts himself into a state of war with me. He that, in the state of nature, would take away the freedom that belongs to any one in that state must necessarily be supposed to have a design to take away everything else, that freedom being the foundation of all the rest; as he that, in the state of society, would take away the freedom be- longing to those of that society or commonwealth must be supposed to design to take away from them everything else, and so be looked on as in a state of war. 18. This makes it lawful for a man to kill a thief who has not in in the least hurt him, nor declared any design upon his life any farther than, by the use of force, so to get him in his power as to take away his money, or what he pleases, from him; because using force where he has no right to get me into his power, let his pre- tence be what it will, I have no reason to suppose that he who would take away my liberty would not, when he had me in his power take away everything else. And therefore it is lawful for me to treat him as one who has put himself into a state of war war with me, i.e., kill him if I can; for to that hazard does he justly expose himself whoever introduces a state of war and is aggressor in it." Now, some of you may argue that the four young men in the subway were not using any force against Mr. Goetz this is simply untrue. They may not have verbally threatened Mr. Goetz, but the psychological threat, the psychological force was there. I have seen Mr. Goetz, he is a not what anyone of us would call a powerfull man. I believe that If Mr. Goetz had allowed the situation to mature, he would have probably been the victim of an assult with his own gun. The four youths simply didn't get a chance to prove that their intentions were anything but coercive or criminal. Mr. Goetz acted well within his rights and if our system of justice does not acknowledge this then it may be time for another constitutional convention. We, as good and honest citezens, have made a contract with the government we support. We have agreed to not take justice into our own hands so long as justice be served by our government. And in return, the government has promised to protect and to serve. The problem is that the government is not keeping up its end of the contract; we, as a free people must therefore be prepared to defend our rights by ourselves as Mr. Goetz has done. God save us from ourselves......... Michael L. Drew