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From: merrill@rex.DEC
Newsgroups: net.kids,net.philosophy
Subject: ah utopia - logic - dicipline - love - flames - kids
Message-ID: <414@decwrl.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 31-Jan-85 13:18:15 EST
Article-I.D.: decwrl.414
Posted: Thu Jan 31 13:18:15 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 1-Feb-85 21:47:03 EST
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Organization: DEC Engineering Network
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The following apparently comes from the "last remaining LIBERAL".
It is a good example of the seductiveness of humanistic "logic".

NOTICE however the following sneaky elements of this "debate":
	PUTTING WORDS IN THE OPPONENTS MOUTH !
	SETTING UP STRAW MEN ! 
	IMPLICIT GUILT BY ASSOCIATION !
	EXTENDING FROM THE SPECIFIC TO THE GENERAL !
	EXTENDING FROM THE GENERAL TO THE SPECIFIC !
	HIDDEN SUBJECTIVITY (NEVER STATING VALUES EXPLICITLY).
	IGNORING DISTINCTIONS OF DEGREE !

|Subject: "Spanking"Posted: Tue Jan 29 06:55:42 1985
|"Spanking" is a marvelous euphemism.  When one adult strikes another,
|it's called "assault," or maybe just "hitting."  ...
|Look, violence is violence.  You wouldn't accept it if your neighbor
|hit you because you were doing something he didn't like.  Hitting your
|kid is the same thing, exactly.
|	"But that's different," you say.  "I have to TEACH my kid."
|I'm sure that if your college, graduate, or professional school
|professor had raised a hand to you, you wouldn't have found that to
|be justified on these grounds.
|	"No, I have to teach him DISCIPLINE!"
|Army drill instructors teach discipline, too.  In fact, they are
|legendary for being rather harsh disciplinarians.  And no one ever
|accused them of harboring the tender, loving feelings toward their
|charges that parents are assumed to have.  Yet drill instructors are
|forbidden from striking recruits.
|	"But family members aren't the same as strangers."
|You're not allowed to hit your spouse without facing criminal
|penalties and society's scorn.
|	"But my kid's too young too listen to reason."
|And he's old enough to understand being assaulted?
|	"How else can I get him to obey me?"
|You accept not being able to force everyone else in the world to
|submit to your will.  (At least, I hope you do!)  Why is your child
|any less privileged?
|	"I provide for my kid's every need.  That gives me the
|	privilege of deciding how to raise him."
|Sounds like a description of a hostage situation, not a family.
|Prison convicts are also provided with food, clothing, and shelter,
|and, perhaps, have proven themselves unworthy of protection in a way
|that few misbehaving 4-year olds have; nonetheless, the guards and wardens
|are prohibited from hitting them.
|	"Look buddy," you say, grasping at libertarian straws, "This
|	is a personal, family matter.  Butt out!"
|No, protection from physical violence is guaranteed by our society,...
|Look at it another way:  of all the members of our society, even
|including those charged with maintaining law and order -- police,
|prison guards, drill sergeants, etc. -- the only ones granted
|permission (by many states) to administer physical punishment to
|others are grade-school teachers.  The same teachers reviled by many
|parents as the stupidest ("those who can, do..."), laziest,
|civil-service union hacks, are given this unique privilege, just
|because we think so little of the rights of our supposedly-beloved
|children.
|We teach our kids even when we don't intend to.  Do we want to teach
|them that rights are determined by who has the physical power, that
|violence is a legitimate way to get someone to do what you want?
|"Spanking" -- child beating -- has been around for a long time, it's
|true:  look at the world out there and see if we haven't reaped just
|what's been sown.
|Jan W. ...

	Uh, Jan, how many kids you got?

We have 5 and our policy is never spank under 2.5 yrs and hopefully
not after 12 yrs of age and hopefully never more than once a year!

Rick