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Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!unc!mcnc!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-lymph!arndt
From: arndt@lymph.DEC
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: To my good ole buddy Rich Rosen!
Message-ID: <286@decwrl.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 21-Jan-85 17:28:28 EST
Article-I.D.: decwrl.286
Posted: Mon Jan 21 17:28:28 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 23-Jan-85 07:11:26 EST
Sender: daemon@decwrl.UUCP
Organization: DEC Engineering Network
Lines: 78

Ahhhhhhhhh!  Let's see now.  Get comfee in my chair here.  

A little sip of the grape.  (Almond flavor - different, interesting, a
saucy little vintage)

It's late at night, as I sit here bathed in the mystical glow of the 
phosphors from the magic eye upon which I write.  I've just slipped out
of bed - no mean task with five people in it.  We sleep with our children.
It's great.  Has it's little drawbacks - I've been tinkled on (but what could
be purer than little girl tinkle?), thrown up on - at least it's warm, and
the other.  But there are rewards too.  Little kids make great 'hot water
bottles'.  And I can very nearly break wind with impunity.

        "SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS"
        "Emily, is that you?"  (me)
        "No daddy"
        "Yes it is!" (Elissa)
        "Quiet!" (Mom)
        "Maybe it's Ethan" (Emily)
        "Whoever it is, knock it off - cough, cough." (Mom)
        "er . . cough, cough"  (me)

But I haven't asked you here to talk about my problems, Rich.  I'd like to
propose we discuss another problem.  You know, the 'GOD' problem.  The one
that seems to be such a concern to so many people.

Let's see, it goes like this:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Purpose/Design implies Intelligence which implies Personality.  There.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course you recognize the Telelogical Argument for the existence of God.
The counters have been: 1) not everything has a purpose - but this still 
doesn't speak to things that do, 2) nothing has purpose - which I think runs
counter to what we observe and makes it pretty hard to get from work to home
and back again the next day.                                              

Paul in Romans 1:18-20 says: "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven 
against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth
by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them,
because God has made it plain to them.  For since the creation of the world
God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been
clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are 
without excuse."

Or in the Old Testament, Psalm 19 - "The heavens declare the glory of God,
etc."

Let's set some ground rules.  I'm not trying the impossible - to 'Prove' the
existence of God.  Can we agree that absolute certainty about anything appears
to be beyond our means?  Let's weigh evidence.  Make a case.  I don't expect to
change your mind, only to hear what you have to say.  Which should be interest-
ing because sometimes you DO have some good stuff to say.

Feel free to bring in other sources (quotes?!) if you wish.  Like . . .
Lord Russell, etc.  Or whatever.  But what do you say to someone who
looks at the universe and sees order, design, - the face of God.  Now
we're not talking about the Christian God, not yet.  Just the concept of
what if . . . .   

And please, leave the 'wish it's so' argument behind.  I'm not talking about
what some people wish were so or even need, but what IS per the evidence of
the world and logic.

Also, very important.  Let's keep to a small topic (in this case the 
telelogical argument) and drop it after we have covered everything once or
twice at most.  "He said, I said, He said, quickly gets boring not to mention
unreadable.  And oh yes.  You can have the last word.

Erase your first reply and leave the rubber chicken untouched.  I will too.

En garde!

Will I regret this in the morning?????

Regards,

Ken Arndt