Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site unc.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!unc!fsks From: fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) Newsgroups: net.religion.christian Subject: Re: Christian Jews Message-ID: <142@unc.UUCP> Date: Tue, 29-Jan-85 18:45:45 EST Article-I.D.: unc.142 Posted: Tue Jan 29 18:45:45 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 30-Jan-85 07:46:45 EST References: <77@unc.UUCP> Reply-To: fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) Organization: CS Dept., U. of N. Carolina at Chapel Hill Lines: 127 Summary: Indented twice are my own (Frank Silbermann's) original comments on Dan Pelligrino's posting. Indented once are Dan Boskovich's request for further information. Unindented is my lates response. ____________________________________________________________________ My original comments to Dan Pelligrino: >> The terms "race" and "geneology" have quite different meanings. >> Geneology refers to a person's ancestry, whereas in this >> country, race has connotations of physical characteristics. >> Originally, the Jews were racially identical to the other >> peoples in the middle eastern region. Dan Boskovich's response to my comments: > The fact that "race" and "geneology" have different meanings > do not affect the point. All people have a genealogy and a race. > Some are mixed races (especially in USA). The fact that Jews > were racially identical also does not affect the point. The > biblical account states that we all descend from the sons of Noah. > Genesis 10 gives the historical perspective. From the sons of Noah > came the nations of Canaan, Ethiopia, Libya, Isreal, Egypt etc. > So at one time all races were "racially" identical (sons of Noah) My point is that the Jews are not now, and never were, a racially distictive group. More of my original comments: >> Throughout the centuries, Jews have accepted converts >> in every land in which they resided. Today, there is >> no single Jewish race. For example, most people would >> consider the Jews of Ethiopia (recently in the news) >> to be mostly negro. Dan Boskovich's response to my comments: > This is like saying there is no single Italian or French race. > There are many people in the U.S. who are a mixture of > nationalities. Does this mean there is a separate race for each > For example, I am half Italian and half Yugoslavian. Does this > make me a separate race from full blooded Italians or a descendant > from the Italian race? There is no such thing as an Italian race, and no Yugoslavian race, either. In Europe, these are NATIONALITIES. In America, they are ETHNIC GROUPS. It has little to do with race. More of my original comments: >> Jews are, however, a geneology, a people. >> One can be born a Jew (as one can be a native >> U.S. citizen), or one can be a convert >> (as one can become a naturalized American). >> The descendants of converts are Jews by birth >> (as the children of immigrants are considered >> to be native Americans). Dan Boskovich's response to my original comments: > I guess the main problem is the meaning of the word "race". > I would say, "One can be born a Jew, (as one can be born Italian)." > However, one cannot become a Jew or an Italian. I could not become an Ethnic Italian in America (though Billy Joel, a born Jew, I believe, has made a strong effort :-) ). However, I could go to Italy, learn the Italian language and ways, and eventually attain Italian citizenship. My children would think of themselves as Italians. Likewise one can become a Jew. The original precedent for ethnic as well as religious conversion to Judaism is the story of Ruth, where she says to (I think) Jacob, "Where you go, I will go. Your people will be my people." Conversion to Judaism is something of a "born again" experience. The rabbis teach that it is bad manners to remind a convert that he was born a gentile. One is to speak of him as if all his ancestors were Jews (not that this is always carried out in practice, unfortunately). Jewish law and tradition makes no distinction between the children of converts and the children of born Jews. There are only a few distinctions made for the converts themselves (for instance, a convert may not marry a temple priest, though this is also the case for certain classes of born Jews). Dan Boskovich's response to my original comments: > Because the Jewish people identify with a particular religous > system, one can convert to those religious practices, > just as many Gentiles did in the Old Testament. These "Gentile > converts" did not become "Jews", they became known as God-fearing > Gentiles. In the New Testament, The Apostle Paul says in > First Corinthians (the exact passage escapes me) that the > "body of Christ" is made up of Jew and Gentile. > Hence, Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. Inaccurate. Only some God-fearing gentiles converted to Judaism. The remainder followed the laws of Noah (less restrictive than the Judaic laws of Moses). Originally, some of the early Christians believed that Jesus's message was for Jews only. They required a gentile to convert to Judaism as a prerequisite for becoming a Christian. This posed some problems. Many gentiles were not willing to obey the dietary laws, the Sabbath laws, etc. Furthermore, all Jewish men must be circumcized. Oddly enough :-), many a potential male convert became squeamish when he learned that a piece of his penis would have to be cut off. In response, Paul declared that Jesus' message fulfilled (transcended) the law of the Jews. That is, that Jesus' message was for everybody, Jew and gentile alike. One did not have to be born Jewish, nor become a Jew, to join the Christian church. In time, the number of gentile Christians became so large that the Jewish Christians (whether born Jew or converted) became an insignificant and forgotten minority, assimilated among the gentile majority. The Christians did, however, believe in retaining at least a portion of Jewish law and tradition. The question of how much to retain became a hotly contested contraversy amoung the early Christians (a source of many "heresies"), and remains a point of contention between various Christian denominations to this day. Frank Silbermann University of North Carolina IT TAKES ONE TO KNOW ONE