Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site cbscc.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!cbosgd!cbsck!cbscc!pmd From: pmd@cbscc.UUCP (Paul Dubuc) Newsgroups: net.religion.christian Subject: Re: Christianiod intolerance Message-ID: <4720@cbscc.UUCP> Date: Fri, 1-Feb-85 15:31:44 EST Article-I.D.: cbscc.4720 Posted: Fri Feb 1 15:31:44 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 2-Feb-85 14:58:33 EST References: <4935@fortune.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories , Columbus Lines: 101 A response to Richard Brower: >OK, I surrender. People have told me before that trying to carry on >a reasoned argument with any kind of a Christian fundamentalist is >not possible, but I had to try for a while. But I'll give up now, >really. (I may read this for some time in the future, but I'll quit >bothering trying to communicate with Christianoids, after posting this >article.) > >Boswell showed that the basis for the current homophobic crisis was >some mistranslations and the thoughts of some of the 'Saints' during >the the dark ages. Well, I knew that that wouldn't change anyone's >mind. But the way I see the Christianoids twist and turn things from >the Bible has finally made me turn away in complete disgust. Is Boswell a final authority?. What makes his exegesis more sound that that of other scholars who conflict with him? True, many Christians see Boswell's arguments and can't refute them, because they don't know Greek themselves and aren't familiar with the historical data. The issue is one of trust. You would like Christians to place their trust in Boswell because you think he is right. Yet those who would disagree with him are written off as homophobes. It is valid to criticize those who stubbornly believe Boswell is wrong because they want to cling to the idea of homosexuality being a sin. That is your opinion of "Christianoids". Yet, it is equally valid to ciriticize those who start with the premise that their homosexuality must be OK and therefore the Bible must not really be saying the things about it that it appears to. If Boswell's argument were to be refuted, how many of those who champion him do you think would be convinced? I would expect none. I've collected Boswell's arguments as they have been posted to the net and I intend to examine his hermeneutics for myself. Until then I'll suspend judgement. Is that OK? Still, I get the feeling that if I come to a different conclusion I will be written off as a homosexual hater. I don't see those who agree with Boswell getting their motives or presuppositions in favor of homosexual practice by Christians brought into question. It's easy to see one who agrees with you as being more objective, I guess. >Well, I claim to not being a Christian, not because I doubt the validity >of Christ's claim to being God and not because of His teachings, which seem >reasonable and self evident; but because I cannot in good conscience join >with those who are such hypocrites. You say you don't consider yourself a Christian just because you don't like many who call themselves Christians? That's not a good reason. I'm quite embarrased and angered by many of the attitudes of many who call themselves Christians, but I wouldn't deny my own claim to be a Christian because of them. >So, go stand up in your churches and temples and pray, "Thank you Lord, >for not making me a filthy faggot like that Richard Brower character...", >but quit with the lies. You cannot love me and claim that my lifestyle >is evil. You cannot love me and claim that my relationship is invalid. >You cannot love me and refuse me jobs and housing. You cannot love me >by throwing me in jail or having me put to death. You cannot love me >and throw my brothers out of your churches (I left by myself, but I >know when I'm not wanted). I disagree that one cannot love another while thinking that something he does is sin. It's hard I'll admit, but look for yourself at Jesus' own example. I know that I sin and also that he loves you and I equally. That does not imply that he thinks our sins are OK and we shouldn't change. As for persecution by Christians--when they take judgement into their own hands--you are certainly right to call this hatred and hypocrisy. You are right that the actions of most Christians do not at all come close to the love that Jesus said we are to have for one another. But I think you are mistaken in implying that that love implies thinking that homosexual practice is fine, for the same reason that anyone who loves me does not have to think that everything I do and believe is right and acceptable to God. Anyone who believes that God approves of everything they do because he loves them is mistaken. God loves eveyone the same; no matter who they are or what they do or believe. The only thing that God calls into question is how much we love him. Jesus that those who love him will keep his commands. The question then becomes, "What are his commands?" They are not necessarily what we feel comfortable with, so we are all in danger of projecting our own will into God's, especially when we want so much to believe that what we are doing is right. >You are not fooling anyone one with this love talk, except possibly >yourselves. You are not fooling me, you are not fooling your gay >children (yes, Christianoids do have gay children who suffer their >parents beliefs the rest of their lives), and you are not fooling >good old JC. True, no one fools Jesus; neither you nor I. As for the rest of us, yes we can all be fooled and fool ourselves; you as well as I. I'll try to be open to the issue of whether or not homosexual practice is a sin. (If it really is, it isn't any worse than some I commit, I'm sure. But I'm willing to recognise my sins as sins and submit to God's remedy for them.) I intend to take Boswell's writing seriously and examine the pros and cons for myself. But do you think many homosexuals are open to the possibility that Boswell is wrong? If not, I hope you won't be so judgemental of Christians who won't face the possibility that he is right. No one is immune from stubborness and bigotry, even those in minorities. -- Paul Dubuc cbscc!pmd