Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83 based; site houxm.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!cbdkc1!desoto!packard!hoxna!houxm!gregbo From: gregbo@houxm.UUCP (Greg Skinner) Newsgroups: net.flame,net.politics Subject: Re: American(?) Music Awards <> (LONG) Message-ID: <1141@houxm.UUCP> Date: Sun, 17-Feb-85 13:28:44 EST Article-I.D.: houxm.1141 Posted: Sun Feb 17 13:28:44 1985 Date-Received: Tue, 19-Feb-85 07:59:18 EST References: <143@cci-bdc.UUCP> <1135@houxm.UUCP> <293@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA> Lines: 164 Xref: watmath net.flame:8419 net.politics:7654 > From: larry@cci-bdc.UUCP (Larry DeLuca) Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ Lines: 160 >> From: gregbo@houxm.UUCP (Greg Skinner) >> First off, no one is penalizing you! You are asked to make sacrifices, so >> that those who otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to do what you have al- >> ways had the opportunity to do are given that opportunity. > yes. and i don't mind making sacrifices for someone who is at a disad- > vantage. but i WON'T make sacrifices for someone because they're black, > or gay, or hispanic, or martian. Well, ok, but how do we define disadvantage? If I am more advantaged than you, then I should make a sacrifice so that you should become as advantaged as I. (Fair enough.) But then, if someone else is more advantaged than me, by the same argument they should make a sacrifice so that I can be as advantaged as they. Now if we allow that an equivalently competent minority and non-minority are to be chosen for a job, because the odds are that the non-minority will be able to get an equivalent job in an environment where the minority would not get that job, the minority should be chosen. (This also assumes that the job applicants in question are at equivalent financial status, mental health, etc. in other words, all things considered equal.) I'm not saying that minor- ities should be blindly given preference for jobs, but that all factors should be weighed. >>> From: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad (Monica Cellio) >>> Yes, whites in America did something most people consider wrong, years >>> ago. But the people who were hurt by it (the slaves) certainly aren't the >>> ones getting the affirmative action, and the people who did the hurting >>> aren't being punished. >> True, but it is the offspring of slaves that are still being mistreated >> because slavery existed, and civil injustice existed when slavery ended. >> Again, no one is being punished, see above. > so? jews have the same problem...i don't advocate mistreating ANYONE... > and though i gave the deaf mute who handed me a card with the names of > the fifty states on it and a note saying "i am a deaf mute trying to > make a reasonable living. please give whatever you can." begging is > begging...sure people have a disability...but they can do something > about it -- helen keller was in a worse spot and look at all she accom- > plished... Oh come now, get serious. Helen Keller was the daughter of fairly well-to-do people. They could afford to hire her a personal tutor. As you recall, she was bratty at first and not even the tutor could do anything with her. 99.9% of the deafmutes in the world can't afford tutors like she had, many of them just get committed to institutions, many more just die. Not everyone in the world has the ability to do something about their disabilities, only those who are in a position where (1) they are financially able to do something about them, or (2) they can get some sort of aid which allows them to do something about their condition. >>> Sure, blacks were enslaved and women were treated as >>> inferiors, BUT no one is keeping the blacks here now and no one is forcing >>> women to stay home. Excuse me if I sound unsympathetic, but I've been asked >>> my race and sex once too often and told that it mattered. >> So, does this mean that blacks are supposed to pack up their things and go >> back to Africa? Is this the only viable solution to the civil rights problem >> because non-minorities are unwilling to right a wrong by making some sacri- >> fices? If this is what people think, then I am not surprised that there is >> still discrimination and prejudice in the USA, and there probably will be >> until blacks just go away. It is not correct to equate the two, acutally, >> because women were not slaves in the sense that blacks were -- they still had >> the freedom to do as they pleased without fear for their lives. A woman who >> left her husband could not be legally brought back to him in chains, whipped, >> and forced back into servitude. > this is a silly argument. black americans would be as out of place in > rural africa now as their forefathers were in the US. This is true, however this was not what I was trying to argue. What I was try- ing to say was that it is unfair to expect blacks to leave the USA on account of prejudice. Blacks did have a share in the building of this country, they have a right to stay. > a woman who left her husband endured a different form of torture, > no less painful in its own way, because both were centered around > BREAKING the human spirit. it's like making a child stay out of the > bathroom until they wet themselves, and then spanking them for it (not > an extremely common form of child abuse but not unheard of, either). I won't deny this, yet there is a difference in that blacks were not looked upon as humans by the then US government, and not entitled to any rights under- neath it. I'm not saying that women were treated fairly in divorce cases in those days (many weren't, as has been pointed out) but the laws were set up to enslave blacks (why do I feel like I am repeating myself?), they were not set up to enslave wives, although the laws may have been interpreted to do so in this case (which is no more correct, yet different). > i'm gay and i resent affirmative action. i wouldn't want a job because > i was a faggot. i would want it because i'm damn good at what i do. i > agree that something like the united negro college fund is a great idea. Well, I'm black (you already knew that). I wouldn't want a job because I was black, but because I consider myself to be good at what I do. I resent equally the fact that some people think I am where I am only because I am black -- I put in a lot of hard work to get where I am, and unlike some children of non- minorities (minorities too!) who could afford to buy them trash-80s or give them additional support in mathematics or science (neither of my parents, nor theirs,are particularly strong in the sciences), I had to do all that on my own. I do owe a debt of gratitude to AA for enabling me to go to school where I did, how- ever I didn't rest on my laurels and let AA get me out of there -- I worked my tail off when I was there too. > i think their slogan says it well, "We're not asking for a handout -- > just a hand." That's all I want, and all I want for those not as fortunate as me. > what i resent in 'my own minority :-)' and all other minorities is the > smugness that comes with being so in tune with one's oppression that one > sees it even when it's not there...though the consequences of slavery > were far-reaching, we can't expect them to pervade everything now. we > can't take away so much as one whip-crack by giving every black in the > world a fantastic job with $60k a year and a sexy secretary (of the > appropriate sex). Well larry, you've heard what I have to say, here and elsewhere, do I sound like I am looking for oppression? If I were, would I continue to associate with those who are supposedly oppressing me, even would I choose to associate with them? I am tired, and frankly, insulted, at being labeled as a flaming black racist. I considered myself to be one of the more enlightened blacks, regard- ing non-blacks, when I was in high school and college, and I continue to do so. If you think (you meaning any of you fellow netters) I am a flaming black ra- cist, I could introduce you to some black suprematists I know, and they will argue that *they* are right and you are wrong -- they will argue for black rights and power, up to and including the overthrow of today's society by blacks. I don't believe in any of those things, and am often to first to speak out against them, nevertheless I cannot sit idly by and let prejudice go unnoticed. > people giving me extra hoopla about getting hired > because i am gay and have 'brothers and sisters' who suffered in the > concentration camps and everywhere else aren't doing them any good > by giving me an advantage. You may not think so, but (1) by giving you an advantage, they recognize the suffering which your brothers/sisters endured, and (2) they are acknowledging that repairs should be made to the wrongs that were done them. It's easy to talk about injustice, but not so easy to do something about it. > most of the people here who have flamed the most about how all > blacks and women and martians should be given extra special > treatment are people who have all the comforts of home around > them. a position where it's easy to look down on 'whitey' and > make him pay (saves you having to dump into the till). I won't disagree, unfortunately it's only those who have some comforts who can recognize the need for equality. Those who don't are often too busy just try- ing to put together a life for themselves amidst their strife, and have no time or energy to conjecture about how things could be better (sort of like the "pulp mill" folks who don't rationalize singles relationships the way some of us do). I admit, I have comforts, however I am giving back something of what I have to those who do not. I tutor high school kids in math & science on weekends. I wasn't tutored in either of those on weekends when I was in high school. All I'm asking is that others give of themselves as I do. -- ... hey, we've gotta get out of this place, there's got to be something better than this ... Greg Skinner (gregbo) {allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!houxm!gregbo