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From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (The Phantom)
Newsgroups: net.followup
Subject: Re: Defending Nassau Hall (MEDIUM LENGTH)
Message-ID: <2390@nsc.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 24-Feb-85 15:37:01 EST
Article-I.D.: nsc.2390
Posted: Sun Feb 24 15:37:01 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 25-Feb-85 02:21:50 EST
References: <1980@inmet.UUCP> <61@daisy.UUCP>
Reply-To: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (The Phantom)
Organization: The Paradise
Lines: 53
Summary: 

In article <61@daisy.UUCP> david@daisy.UUCP (David Schachter) writes:
>>
>I had no problem either and I didn't graduate, I quit!  However I have had a
>hard time recommending other people from Princeton because the EECS Department
>was so bad as were most other aspects of the place.  There are only a few
>good people there (correction: there >were< a few...) and the ones I knew
>learned about computers and computing by doing it, not by going to useless
>classes taught by incompetent "professors" who did more harm than good.

David goes on to describe a large number of 'problems' at Princeton. I'm
not going to repeat them, since you can find the parent article. I'm not
going to paraphrase them, since you can probably figure them out for
yourself. I'm not even going to try to refute them. I don't have experience
at Princeton, but the problems David sees aren't unique to Princeton. From
my experience (and if you follow CACM, it seems to be endemic) the problems
David saw at Princeton are the problems most serious students see at most
universities and colleges.

I'm like David. I quit, too, when I realized that as an undergrad I had
more useful information on a given subject than the professors that were
'teaching' me. I once took a COBOL (*ugh*) course where the definition of
structured programming was 'no gotos'. You can do a LOT of interesting
things to a structured program to make it unreadable without gotos,
especially in COBOL. What I've found is that the people who are truly
interested in teaching end up getting forced out-- tenure is aimed at tha
researchers and politicians. People who care about classes and students do
so on their own time, at their own risk. 

There has to be something terribly wrong when a student who is truly
interested in getting an advanced degree and joining a university is told
to go into industry. I originally hoped to teach (I may someday, anyway). I
find it extremely distressing that every professor I ever took classes from
(and I am serious when I say every) told me not to teach. The money is bad,
the work arrangements are bad, you spend all of your time doing things like
getting tenure, publishing papers, hassling comittees, doing research so
you can publish papers. Is something missing in there? Right-- you haven't
heard the words 'teach' or 'student' yet. 

From what I've seen, most curriculums are woefully outdated, and very slow
to change. Many places are still teaching things that were outdated years
ago. Worse, some places don't recognize that fact.

The problems David sees aren't Princeton's problems. Their the problems of
a university environment that has its priorities wrong-- the politics of
the position have overwhelmed the fact that professors are supposed to be
there to pass on their knowledge to the next generation. This ins't
restricted to a single campus, its endemic.

-- 
From behind the eight ball:                       Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui   nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

We'll be recording at the Paradise Friday night. Live, on the Death label.