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From: mwm@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA
Newsgroups: net.politics.theory
Subject: Re: What is socialism?
Message-ID: <736@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA>
Date: Sun, 17-Feb-85 00:57:45 EST
Article-I.D.: ucbtopaz.736
Posted: Sun Feb 17 00:57:45 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 18-Feb-85 05:19:31 EST
References: <325@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> <711@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA> <190@ubvax.UUCP>
Reply-To: mwm@ucbtopaz.UUCP (Praiser of Bob)
Organization: Missionaria Phonibalonica
Lines: 30
Summary: 

In article <190@ubvax.UUCP> tonyw@ubvax.UUCP (Tony Wuersch) writes:
><mike wants Rich Carnes to come up with a non-Utopian
>criteria for a socialist state.  The implication is that Carnes
>doesn't think any of the states now calling themselves socialist
>are socialist.  I don't think Carnes ever said that; I hope he didn't.

I did no such thing. I asked for a way of recognizing a socialist state
from outside. I did *not* use the word Utopia. I don't think a socialist or
communist state could be a Utopia. [And ask what I mean by a Utopia before
flaming at me, please.] By the criterion I currently use ("Do they call
themselves either socialist or communist?"), all states now calling
themselves socialist are socialist. So was Germany under the National
Socialists. This seems to upset socialists, so I asked for a better
definition.

>My own criteria [Commentary and source references deleted - mwm]:
>Any country which was substantially penetrated by capitalist market
>enterprise before its shift to socialist systems should be called
>socialist.

Ok, I accept that I can apply that from outside. Now, can I define
"socialist system" to mean "the government controls industry, in one way or
another", or do you want to give me another definition of "socialist
system" (again, that can be recognized from the outside)?

	<mike

P.S. On your argument about eliminating an axes of exploitation, it would
seem that most countries merely made the property and status axis coincide.
Is that what you had in mind?