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From: faustus@ucbcad.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Replies to mmt
Message-ID: <108@ucbcad.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 17-Feb-85 13:08:13 EST
Article-I.D.: ucbcad.108
Posted: Sun Feb 17 13:08:13 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 18-Feb-85 06:14:44 EST
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> Rephrasing to (try) and make the differences obvious:
> 
> Josh: Coercion is the promise "I will make you worse off than you are now
> unless you do this."
> 
> Martin: Coercion is the promise "You will be worse off if you do this than
> if you don't."
> 
> Also note that Martin has made coercion and seduction synonymous by
> symmetry. For example, I am coerced/seduced into paying taxes. After all,
> if I pay taxes I'm better off than if I don't pay taxes (I'm not in jail),
> and if I don't pay taxes I'm worse off than if I do pay taxes.

Since we're trying to find a definition for coercion, consider some
cases:  say our definition of coercion is Josh's. Then if there is a
burglar in your house and you threaten him, by saying "I will make you
worse off than you are now unless you leave", he can claim that you
have initiated the coercion. (He never made any threats against you,
but has just come to take some of your things.) Since coercion is
anathema to Libertarians, it seems that you can't defend your own
house. Then you might define coercion as: "Telling somebody that you
will make him worse off than he is unless he does something, or
violating his 'basic rights'". But then what are the basic rights?
Assuming that we can make a list of basic rights (which I think is
unlikely), there are cases like: Jones, a rich man, owns a rich bakery,
and Smith, a poor starving man, steals a loaf of bread that is cooling
off outside. Is this right? (It isn't coercion, certainly, so
Libertarians can't say that coercion is the only evil...)

All I am trying to point out is that Justice isn't as simple as 
Libertarians want to make it seem. A few clear rules just can't cover
what is right and wrong, at least the way that we think of the concepts.

	Wayne