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From: tonyw@ubvax.UUCP (Tony Wuersch)
Newsgroups: net.politics.theory
Subject: Re: What is socialism?
Message-ID: <196@ubvax.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 19-Feb-85 14:06:04 EST
Article-I.D.: ubvax.196
Posted: Tue Feb 19 14:06:04 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 22-Feb-85 15:49:20 EST
References: <325@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> <711@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA> <190@ubvax.UUCP>, <736@ucbtopaz.CC.BerkRe: What is socialism?
Organization: Ungermann-Bass, Inc., Santa Clara, Ca.
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>Now, can I define "socialist system" to mean "the government controls
>industry, in one way or another", or do you want to give me another
>definition of "socialist system" (again, that can be recognized from the
>outside)?

	><mike

Also, the government puts restrictions on the accumulation, use and disposal of
private property.  Also, the government gives explicit rights and
protections to workers, especially the right to employment.

>P.S. On your argument about eliminating an axes of exploitation, it would
>seem that most countries merely made the property and status axis coincide.
>Is that what you had in mind?

I interpret this as suggesting that most currently socialist countries have
just substituted status for property exploitation, without reducing the
total (or even increasing it from what was before).  I don't think that's
so.  Most socialist countries have extensive health care, improved
education, decent old age programs, and a shortage of labor that guarantees
full employment.  These are achievements possible in part because of the
elimination of exploitation by means of property.  Exploitation by status
implys a reciprocal relationship between ruler and ruled in terms of rights
and guarantees (a firmer contract between classes).  Exploitation by
property implys no such relation.

Compare Eastern Europe to Latin America, and it looks pretty good.  Given
their per capita GNPs, socialist states serve their people much better
than capitalist states at similar GNP levels.  I would judge that the
level of economic exploitation is much less in most socialist states than
in capitalist ones.

Of course, exploitation is only one of many important criteria to judge
states by.  There's also democracy, economic growth, innovation, culture,
and other things.  Here the current socialist states have serious problems,
and I don't think the judgment is yet out on whether they will solve these
problems or not.

(I didn't interpret my last comment about <mike as a flame at all.  Sorry
if it was interpreted that way.)

Tony