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Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh
From: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Merrill, "why he DOES believe..."
Message-ID: <362@cybvax0.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 18-Feb-85 15:35:45 EST
Article-I.D.: cybvax0.362
Posted: Mon Feb 18 15:35:45 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 20-Feb-85 20:16:59 EST
References: <561@decwrl.UUCP> <539@pyuxd.UUCP> <329@teklds.UUCP>
Reply-To: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz)
Organization: Cybermation, Inc., Cambridge, MA
Lines: 52
Summary: 

In article <329@teklds.UUCP> larryg@teklds.UUCP (Karen Clark) writes:
> There is only one reason and ONE REASON ONLY to believe in Jesus.  
> 
> I have met Him and talked to Him and experienced HIM in my life.

This is one of the dishonest aspects of born-agains that I revile.
Because inevitably they are talking either allegory or fantasy.  Not
real life "here's my friend JC, shake hands with him" like we would
introduce anyone else we know.  They are talking more like
we would dream of meeting the Wizard of Oz, or a giant invisible rabbit
named Harvey.  Or they are speaking of day to day occurrences we all
already have: they just interpret them differently.

> Each person must have this experience for themselves to become a
> christian and to believe.  Now obviously I had to have some amount
> of faith to seek to meet Him. 

Not obvious to me at all.  Why is it obvious to you?  Because its a dogma?

> Just like one would if you have heard about President Reagan or
> Jeff Sargeant or Rich Rosen.  I would set off on my journey to meet
> them based on faith.  When I would finally meet them (if they really
> existed) then I would KNOW them.

If any one of them (or anyone else) sought me out, or if I happened to
introduce myself to them by accident (sitting next to them on a bus...)
then I would get to know them just as well as if I hunted them down.
So why should I have to look for JC to get to know him?  Unlike we mortals,
he's supposed to multitask sufficiently that opportunity is no problem
for him.

> Everything else outside of experiential knowledge is falling short
> of a true relationship with God and obviously will not stand up to
> attack.

Fine by me.  But it has to be an experience that anyone can share.  Don't
give me any BS about having to be equally deluded to see your giant rabbit.
Sure, other believers can share it with you.  Let's see if you truely
experience the same thing.  You can both dictate what JC is saying at the
same time.  Or ask him to carry a message between the two of you.  I'll
pick the message.  By the way, if you wish to rebut this, keep in mind
my first paragraph above.

> Do you assume that your mother exists therefore her existance is
> based on your assumption?  No, she exists, period.  How do you
> know that?

I "know" who my mother is because I was told so at an early age.  So
do many adoptees.  So do may religious believers "know" their god.
-- 

Mike Huybensz		...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh