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From: mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Law and Christianity (sort of)
Message-ID: <3584@umcp-cs.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 24-Feb-85 23:59:09 EST
Article-I.D.: umcp-cs.3584
Posted: Sun Feb 24 23:59:09 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 25-Feb-85 20:33:34 EST
References: <249@cmu-cs-k.ARPA> <3299@umcp-cs.UUCP> <5077@utzoo.UUCP>
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In the interests of readability, Laura's article follows my response.

First, I must comment that "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" is NOT
found in the New Testament, as far as I can tell; the style of it tends to
indicate Torah origin.  Now, some may want to argue the point, but in the
two traditions of Christianity I was brought up in (Reformed and Anglican)
we do not take any Torah law as being a priori binding upon christians.
Furthermore, the story of Jesus and the adulteress indicates to me that one
should not go around wantonly applying the Torah, or even "Christian Law",
as a pretext for rape, murder, and the like.  As I've tried to argue, it is
immoral for christians to run around trying to force the entirety of what
they view to be the moral law on everyone.  Some parts of the moral law,
such as prohibitions against murder, obviously have a place in the civil law.
Prohibitions against blasphemy, just as obviously, do not.

   One can conclude too much from the history of Christianity.  To a large
extent, the barbarism of the medieval church when judged by modern standards
is a reflection of the general improvement in moral standards in the whole of
Western civilization.  I might add that in other regions, there has not been
the same improvement-- not that this should be construed as justification.
Modern history has shown, also, that apparently civilized nations are capable
of tremendous evil; Laura's fears are not unfounded.

For those of you who are not aware of the fact: as Laura says, there are in
fact witches, although the word in its common use is almost completely
misleading.  Several important female fantasy writers are witches; Charles
Williams, the (often incomprehensible) christian fantasist, was a member of
the Golden Dawn.  I'll pass on the question as to whether they are in need
of psychiatric help; after all, there are those who think that christians
are all in need of same.

I really don't know what to do, frankly; and these people represent a threat
to my kind as well, although obviously not to the same extent.  It's just
that I don't know how I'm supposed to influence them when they are in power.
After all, I'm one of those milktoast Episcopalians, who allow DANCING and
DRINKING in church (not to mention liturgical clowning).  And, sad to say,
the complex positions of the average Episcopalian don't play well in the
news media; the characature of a preacher which is Jerry Falwell is
infinitely more telegenic.  I've also noticed that people seem to be afraid
of real liberty; patriotic talk about the Land of the Free is fine, but when
it comes to the real thing, people would rather have the government writing
laws against it.

Sorry to be so pessimistic, but I'm just a poor confused theologian who
has seen his share of abuse out of life.

Charley Wingate   umcp-cs!mangoe

Article follows:

>It is necessary to take a long view when looking at the past actions
>of Christians. You will find interesting discrepancies. For instance,
>these days, there are very few Christians around who condone the
>burning of non-christians as an act done out of obedience to God.
>These days, most Christians feel that the people who commited such
>atrocities ``in the name of Christ'' were, at best, mistaken and
>at worst evil.
>
>However, this is a relatively late development. Over the course of
>history the evidence is clear that a great many Christians plainly
>felt that it was their duty to commit what are now condemnable acts.
>
>Worse, for all the ``official'' pronouncements to the contrary, there
>are still a lot of  people who call themselves Christian and who
>advocate the persecution of various other faiths. The mentality
>of the witch burners is alive and well in Ontario. . . and other
>places as well. By the time I was 12, I had run across it, and
>been strapped and ``had the devil beaten out of me'' by some
>very well meaning people who truly thought that this was what God
>wanted them to do with pantheists.  Since they ran the school I
>was attending at the time there was  little that I could do (or
>at least that I thought I could do)  except take the weekly
>strappings in stride -- until I left that school.
>
>How much effort would it take to organise these people back into
>killing people whose beliefs they found offensive? At the time
>I thought that very little  effort would be required. And I wonder
>how much resistence they would meet from their neighbours. Historically,
>Christianity has been used as a wonderful vehicle for people to
>justify the particular groups that they use to vent their hatred and as
>a focus for their fears. From my perspective, whether this is ``correct''
>or not is irrelevant -- any document that out and outs says that one
>shall not ``suffer a witch to live'' is very, very dangerous. Anybody
>who decides to kill me can use that particular quote as a fruitful
>starting ground.
>
>Is the word of those who do not believe that God actually meant this
>line of John (so why is it there?) going to prevail over those who
>read it and interpret it to literally  declare a religious open season
>on witches? If so, why? In talking to a good many Christians on the
>issue I have found that a surprising number of them think that there
>either  ``are no real witches today'' or that anyone who professes to be
>a witch is in need of psychiatric help, because ``one could not seriously
>believe this''. Involuntary committal may be better than burning, but I
>wonder. Is the primary  reason that Christians have given  up witch
>burning that they think that either there never were witches or that, if
>there were, they have killed all of them off? Better not invite them to
>Pan Pagan Festival then...
>
>I worry about this a lot. What do *you* think will keep a return of
>the killing of heretics from occurring?
>
>Laura Creighton (pagan heretic)
>utzoo!laura