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From: samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: Conversions and who is a *
Message-ID: <484@sfmag.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 13-Feb-85 23:15:50 EST
Article-I.D.: sfmag.484
Posted: Wed Feb 13 23:15:50 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 15-Feb-85 03:39:05 EST
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> > .  Whether someone is considered
> > a rabbi or not is irrelevant, rather if he believes in the Orthodox
> > tradition and can be trusted is the question.

> I think that this connection between, "we disagree on some Talmudic
> interpretations" and "he can't be trusted" is both illogical and
> insulting. If someone says I'm converting this woman with mikve
> or I'm converting this man with mikve and brit mila, why such suspicion?

If we  are discussing halacha, it's futile to ignore  the  entire
halachic  context.   I'm not an expert on halacha or conversions,
but I'm aware of at least two halachic foundations you've  missed.
Here they are:

1) RULES OF EVIDENCE -  Such  rules  govern  in  determining  the
kashrus  of   conversions  (as  they do throughout Halacha.) They
entail complex factors  including  a)the  object  of   testimony,
b)how   many  witnesses  are  required,  c)  whether  presumptive
evidence is  acceptable,  etc.   The  details  of  the  case  and
witnesses make all the difference in the world.

What is an "invalid witness"?

First of all, there is a distinction between  suspecting  someone
and  disqualifying  him  as a witness. The Talmud illustrates  as
follows:
	The Torah would obligates us to reject the testimony
	of Moshe  Rabeinu  (Moses) in any  case concerning
	his brother Aaron on the purely technical grounds
	that they are relatives. This  is despite the fact
	that  Moshe  is  unquestionably  above  all suspicion.

So, the Torah tells us to follow technical rules. In  some  cases
these supercede  what you or I might imagine to be "reasonable".+
Technically, those  outside  orthodoxy  (and some within) are not
valid  witnesses. It is in this sense that "being trusted", i.e.,
as a witness, was used in the quoted article. Even if all   were
done according to the book, he couldn't testify to that fact. It's
also likely that in practice, he understands  that  "book" quite
differently, just as you and I do.


2) BEIS DIN ACTION  The act  of  conversion,  according  to  some
authorities,  requires  what's  called  a "maaseh Beis Din". This
requires a conversion to be performed under  the  auspices  of  a
duly  constituted  Rabbinical  Court,i.e.,  having  (a minimum of
three) qualified Judges.

This is loosely analagous to my lay understanding of due process.
(I  may regret this.)... You can't be convicted unless you have a
trial in court...  You may be guilty morally, ethically,  or feel
psychologically  guilty,  but you  cannot become guilty, legally,
without that court proceeding.  You can try to set  up  your  own
kangaroo  court  or  to select another jurisdiction.  That's fun,
fantasy, or whatever, but if we're talking American law, "Tell it
to the Judge".

The halachic rule is that anyone not committed to  Torah  halacha
is disqualified as a judge.


-------
+ Still, assuming the halachic context, it's "reasonable" to defer
to those rules, since that context equates them with Divine Wisdom.

				
					Yitzchok Samet