Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site cvl.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!unc!mcnc!decvax!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!umcp-cs!cvl!arig From: arig@cvl.UUCP (Ari Gross) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Re: "Jewish State" vs. "state for the Jews" Message-ID: <38@cvl.UUCP> Date: Fri, 15-Feb-85 11:26:52 EST Article-I.D.: cvl.38 Posted: Fri Feb 15 11:26:52 1985 Date-Received: Tue, 19-Feb-85 06:03:00 EST References: <861@eisx.UUCP> <4644@ucbvax.ARPA> <8@cvl.UUCP> <312@mhuxm.UUCP> Organization: Computer Vision Lab, U. of Maryland, College Park Lines: 73 > > Assuming you're correct (and I don't believe that you are), I pose > > the following QUESTION: > > If ISRAEL is only to be a "state for the Jews" and not a "Jewish > > State" ( "Jewish State" meaning one that adheres to the Jewish religion ) > A Jewish State is one where Jews govern themselves.Judaism is not a religion, > it is an entire way of life. Ergo, what Jews do is Jewish. NOT REALLY, some Jews do things that are really not very Jewish at all, like convert to Christianity. Do you mean that any act that a Jew performs is inherently 'Jewish' ? > > what purpose does it serve? We already have a "state for the Jews" (where > > the standard of living is much higher than in Israel) ; it's called NEW YORK . > > Ari Gross > > arig@cvl.arpa > We Jews haven't had a Jewish State for a long time. I for one am happy that > we have one today. I am too. But the reason I'm happy that there is a Jewish State is because things that are 'Jewish' are done there. By things that are Jewish I don't mean having lox and bagels Sunday morning for breakfast -- but rather Jewish tradition and heritage. For example, Saturday is the official day of rest in Israel and all government officials go to great lengths not to violate the Sabbath publicly as they represent not only them- selves but the whole country of Israel. In the Israeli army soldiers are not allowed to desecrate the Sabbath in public places (they are free to do as they please when in private -- unlike Iran where religious observance is forced on you). On the first night of Passover, all of the People of Israel participate in a Seder. These things typify what is 'Jewish' about the State of Israel , and they are all inexorably connected with the Jewish religion. Take them all away and the State of Israel would be dramatically different from what it is today. > Orthodox have a long way to go before they can make any demands on other > Jews. The Orthodox way endeavors to separate itself from other Jews as > much as possible (one might even suspect that many Orthodox hope that the > the other Jews will assimilate into oblivion so that they can be left > as the only Jews). Orthodox for the most part have no desire to associate > formally with other Jews (with the possible exception of Lubavitch--but there > is talk that they won't allow ba'alei t'shuvah of marriageable age to mix > with "genuine" Lubavitch). But on top of this they believe towards other > Jews similarly to their beliefs towards potential converts: They should > be discouraged from attempting to become more religious Jews! . . . > --J. Abeles If you have an axe to grind, go ahead and grind it -- but the truth of the matter is that nothing could be further from the truth. The Orthodox way is to try and bring other Jews back to their roots. And, I might add, there are many Jews out there today who really do want to know more about their religion. Unlike your response, which implies nothing but derision for those whose views differ from your own, most Orthodox Jews that I have come in contact with will do all they can for a fellow Jew regardless of his/her beliefs. Ari Gross arig@cvl.arpa