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From: ignatz@aicchi.UUCP (Ihnat)
Newsgroups: net.followup,net.unix
Subject: Re: ksh availability
Message-ID: <402@aicchi.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 15-Mar-85 18:58:36 EST
Article-I.D.: aicchi.402
Posted: Fri Mar 15 18:58:36 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 16-Mar-85 05:30:23 EST
References: <10005@ulysses.UUCP> <15757@mgweed.UUCP>
Reply-To: ignatz@aicchi.UUCP (David M. Ihnat)
Organization: Analysts International Corp; Chicago Branch
Lines: 66
Keywords: ksh licensing
Xref: watmath net.followup:4661 net.unix:3945

In his article, Randy King apologetically praises Dave's ksh.
No apology is needed; it's truly an outstanding product, and
deserves whatever praise it gets.  While I was on contract at
Bell Labs, I used it extensively; now that my contract is over,
I miss it intensely.  But I do have to take exception with the
claim that it's available.

Yes, it now can be bought; but, according to the "AT&T Toolchest",
which I called just to make sure I'm not mistaken, it's $2000 per site for
a source license, and  $20000 for a vendor license for object
redistribution.  Also, not mentioned by the Toolchest, but certified
as applicable by another source, is that you must have a System V
source license to buy the source.

I'm sorry, but I hate to break it to AT&T that most sites don't need or
want System V source licenses.  Many purchase a machine for which a
vendor has done the port; they can afford the object license, but as
businesses have neither need, desire, nor cash to buy their own source
license--let the vendor fix bugs.  Yet, at $20000, the vendors are going
to have to charge a substantial sum to recoup their loss on the ksh
source.  Try to explain to a bursar or comptroller why you want to spend
hundreds to thousands of dollars on a new shell--I dare you.  The fact
of the matter is that, whether we like it or not, it'll be darn hard
to justify significant cash expenditure for a tool which will replace
a tool which is currently doing the job, be it 'sh' or 'csh'.

The same applies for the honey-danber uucp package (which, I was surprised
to note, is *not* offered on the Toolchest menu).  Apparently, $2000/object
license (could someone verify--is that per *machine*, or *organization*?
In any case, it's extreme).  Again, try to justify that type of cash
outlay to an organization which has a tool that works already.  Yes, I
have to nurse it, watch it, and beat on it--but I'm already doing that,
and we're getting our mail and uucp traffic, sooner or later.

All of the preceeding totally ignores the fact that the number of Venix-
and Xenix-based small Unix(Tm) systems, owned by both individuals and 
businesses, is huge, and that AT&T is agressively marketing the 3B2.
Obviously, the average individual cannot afford a source license, or
a $2000 object license, or...

Finally, I question the propriety of overcharging in the extreme for the
practice of, effectively, offering corrected versions of products which are
*already* provided with the existing software, but are so bug-ridden as
to be apocryphal.

No...I don't think that ksh (or, for that matter, honey-danber uucp) is
really available to Unix users yet.  As I said before, I applaud the efforts
of Dave, Pete, Dan, and Brian; "they done good, real good".  And I can
understand that it's difficult for AT&T to figure out immediately what
is the best marketing strategy, after so many years as a regulated monopoly.
But, in the end, I'm the one with a Unix machine at work, and one at home,
and can't justify the cash outlay for the tools at work, and can't afford it at
home; and that's the bottom line.  If it's not affordable, it's not
available.

Unix is a trademark of AT&T Bell Telephone Laboratories; probably AT&T
Toolchest, as well.

The opinions expressed herein are solely my own, and in no way necessarily
reflect the opinions, attitudes, or policies of my employer.

-- 
	Dave Ihnat
	Analysts International Corporation
	(312) 882-4673
	ihnp4!aicchi!ignatz