Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site cmu-cs-k.ARPA Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!bellcore!decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!godot!harvard!seismo!rochester!cmu-cs-pt!cmu-cs-k!tim From: tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Black replies (or tries to) Message-ID: <306@cmu-cs-k.ARPA> Date: Wed, 13-Mar-85 20:20:02 EST Article-I.D.: cmu-cs-k.306 Posted: Wed Mar 13 20:20:02 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 16-Mar-85 02:52:20 EST References: <1072@decwrl.UUCP> Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking Lines: 123 This is a response to Don Black's message of 12 March 1985, portions of which are quoted below. >>I have talked to various christian leaders who think that the >>world shoudl become a series of christian states and that non-christians >>should be institutionalised. They are there -- try any campus christian >>group (except, say, theology centres) and you will find some -- I've >>found them on 12 campuses already and hear about them from others. >>Laura Creighton > > Laura, would you mind naming a few of these campuses and the names of >the groups that are preaching this? I know about a group out in Idaho >(the Aryan Nations) that are a little far out, but I'd be curious to find >out what these other groups have to say. Maranatha for one. Campus Crusade for Christ for another. And I would be surprised to find out that a majority of IVCF members didn't feel this way. All three groups are all over the place. > They tell me that Falwell's preaching is so pro-Israel and pro-Jewish >that he trips over himself. How can you say that such a fine Christian as >Jerry (who runs many campus Christian groups) is anti-non-Christian? Totally false, as anyone not cursed with selective memory knows. Several years ago, Falwell made a public remark that God does not hear the prayers of a Jew. Remember that? It was all over the press for a while. Since then he has become more careful about revealing his true feelings. As for whether he is pro-Israel, yes and no. He does support continued US aid to Israel, but if you look beneath the surface of fundamentalist Christian support for Israel, you find the real reason: the fundies believe the end of the world (which they greatly desire) can only happen if there is an armed nation called Israel. Don't make this out to be humanitarian; they think Israel will take it on the chin from the USSR in the final days. >>Path: decwrl!decvax!mit-athena!martillo >>Subject: Re: Christians converting Christians >>Posted: Fri Mar 1 05:52:51 1985 > >>Judaism does not proselytize specifically because it accepts the >>existence of many cultures and religions. Everyone not just Jews has a >>portion in the world to come. Obviously, if some pagan is praying to an >>idol, he is not praying to God, but if that prayer is well-intentioned >>and sincere God may chose to listen. Judaism merely expects of non-Jews >>that they act decently. How is this intolerant? > > That ain't exactly what I've heard. For example, I heard that in the >State of Israel (the epitome of Judaism) it is not possible for a non-Jew >to obtain citizenship. I also heard it is against the law to give a Jew >a copy of the New Testament. I heard that it is also an offense to tell >a Jew under 18 years of age anything about Christianity. I heard that in >the State of Israel if you don't belong to a certain nationality of Jews, >you and a dog have a lot in common. (Somebody even told me that it is >an offense punishable by death to allow a non-Jew to read the Talmud, but >that sounds a little far-fetched to be true.) If I heard wrong, then I'm >ignorant, and I need educating. You are extremely ignorant. Everything you said is false. Where did you hear it, from your anti-Semitic fundie friends? Do you people never consider doing some research to verify the facts when a fundie insults another religion? > Now I ask, is it an indecent act to hand out copies of the New Testa- >ment? Is it an indecent act to be anything other than...No, I'm going to >refrain from finishing this sentence. Is it an indecent act to bear false witness against your Jewish neighbors? >>Just don't mix it with conservative politics! Cain tried that ("Am I >>my brother's keeper?"), and you know what happened to him. >> >>More to the point, Biblical days seem to have been pretty horrible. I'll >>stick with the preposterous 20th century, thanks. >>-- >>Col. G. L. Sicherman >>...decvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel > With all due respect, colonel, military rank does not impress me; >credentials and accomplishments do. Did Col. Sicherman in any way attempt to imply that his rank made his opinions superior to yours? If I had attained that rank, you can be sure I'd be proud of it and would use it in my signature, as is allowed by both law and etiquette. > Yes, the 20th century sure has been preposterous! Since 1914, Babylon >has done nothing but get drunk on the blood of American martyrs. We've waged >plenty of battles against Communism, but to this day we have not yet declared >war on it. (And what could be a better definition of "Antichrist" than "those >who are against, i.e. anti-, Christ? And who are more anti-Christ than the >Communists, except for maybe...well, never mind.) "Good afternoon, ma'am." "Oh, are you here about..." "... completing the sentences? Yes, ma'am." (Monty Python) Seriously, your history appears to be very muddled. The Russian Revolution was in 1917, not 1914. We have fought military actions on the same side as Communists, particularly World War II, which could certainly not have been won without Russian help. It is totally impossible to declare war on a philosophy, and it is pragmatically impossible to declare war on all the Communist countries in the world. It would also be a very short war, lasting perhaps an hour.... > I guess maybe an even greater problem in America is not with Communism, >not with atheists, not with the Jews, or the schools, or the politicians, but >rather it is a deeper, less obvious problem. American Christians just do not >realize who they are, what America is, and what God's promise to them and to >America comprises. When American Christians begin to "see the light," the >Antichrist is in "deep sneakers." Hey, that's pretty specific! Thanks for spelling out the problem in such detail, Don. >In Hoc signo, > >Don Black Somehow, "In this sign, Don Black" does not strike me as a particularly coherent thing to say. If you are comparing your name with the sign that manifested itself to Saul of Tarsus, you should realize that you are being blasphemous.... -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!"