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From: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: to Keebler from Marchionni
Message-ID: <420@cybvax0.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 19-Mar-85 12:17:42 EST
Article-I.D.: cybvax0.420
Posted: Tue Mar 19 12:17:42 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 21-Mar-85 02:48:44 EST
References: <1646V6M@PSUVM> <416@cybvax0.UUCP> <707@pyuxd.UUCP> <5268@utzoo.UUCP>
Reply-To: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz)
Organization: Cybermation, Inc., Cambridge, MA
Lines: 48
Summary: 

Aiiieeeee!  Not the lunatic or liar argument again!

In article <5268@utzoo.UUCP> laura@utzoo.UUCP (Laura Creighton) writes:
> ... assume thathe is not lying to
> you about his subjective religious experience. Okay -- either he is
> insane or something happened. Now, if you think that net.religion is
> read primarily by liars and lunatics, then I don't know why you bother.
> If, on the contrary, you think that something did happen, then his
> claim to Mike Huybesek was sound.

Once again, there is no need to assume lunacy or fabrication to explain
that it is normal for people to have unreal experiences.  We all dream,
we all imagine, we all can misinterpret, and we all are subject to a host
of temporary abnormal behaviors of our brains and sensory systems.  We can
even reproduce some of these at will in individuals at laboratories.  With
drugs, hypnosis, perceptual tricks, and other techniques.

> 	Something happened; I have evidence; you won't accept it
> because it is subjective; religious experience is always subjective;
> I defy you to proove that it didn't happen. This is strong stuff.

I believe you when you say something happened.  I may not believe your
interpretation.  Your sighting of a flying saucer may be a phospheme or
a weather balloon.  Your talks with god may be a dream or something
you convinced yourself of.

I don't need to disprove that you experienced something.  You need to
prove to me the reality of your experience.  Extraordinary claims require
extraordinary proof.

> Mike can either accept the claims or leave, but that might be the whole
> idea. I still don't know why all people, everywhere, don't have religious
> experiences, but a little voice keeps muttering ``becuase they don't
> want to, fool!''.

I'm sure you would like it better if I only accepted your claims or left,
but I have another alternative.  I can say they're false.

By the way, I have had religious experiences.  They're quite remarkable.
My most recent was three years ago while hiking through the mountains in
the Olympic rain forest.  It was about an idea I was deriving from "The 
reakdown of Nations", that there is an optimal size for every form of
organization.  It was a true epiphany.  I've had others in a fair number
of other subjects, mostly biology.  I imagine that if I was as interested
in JC, I'd have experiences about him.
-- 

Mike Huybensz		...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh