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Path: utzoo!linus!faron!meister
From: meister@faron.UUCP (Philip W. Servita)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Divine omniscience
Message-ID: <258@faron.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 22-Mar-85 11:03:29 EST
Article-I.D.: faron.258
Posted: Fri Mar 22 11:03:29 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 24-Mar-85 05:14:45 EST
References: <941@sjuvax.UUCP> <1284@aecom.UUCP>
Reply-To: meister@faron.UUCP (Philip W. Servita)
Organization: The MITRE Coporation, Bedford, MA
Lines: 88

(Shortened for brevity, and we've all seen these args before many times...)
In article <1284@aecom.UUCP> teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) writes:
>> 
>> In article <221@cmu-cs-gandalf.ARPA> hua@cmu-cs-gandalf.UUCP writes:
>> >If God is omniscient, he knows what I'm thinking and what I will do.
>> >Therefore, I don't have freedom of choice.  If at some point in my life
>> >I will have to choose between a or b, God knows I will pick "a".  Therefore
>> >I can't pick b.  But yet he gets upset at people's choices, even though
>> >he knows they had no alternative.

>> >Chris Larsen at CMU

>>          It seems we have no choice but to say that either human beings 
>> really *have* no free will, or that God does not exist. If I have not 
>> explained myself clearly, I will undoubtedly have a chance later to do so.
>
>	As has been argued before, G-D exists in a timeless environment.
> If so there is no past present or future. For G-D to know what I will do
> is the same as to know what I did, because if there is no time there is no
> did or will do.
>
>			Eliyahu Teitz.


I for one am tired of this cop-out, as advanced by Wingate, Teitz, and many
other people i have talked with. so once and for all, it will be laid to
rest:

    AXIOM #1:
        God is omnipotent.
    Axiom #2:
        God is omniscient.
    AXIOM #3: 
        God exists in a timeless environment. We do not.

    Question: Can God Make a Decision?
        case NO:
           Axiom 1 says that God is omnipotent. case NO is a contradiction.
        case YES:
           We assume God can make a decision. 
           This immediately implies the next question to ask:
           Question 2: Can God Change His/Her/Its/Whatevers Mind?
           case NO:
              This contradicts Axiom 1 as before.
           case YES:
              We assume God can change his/her/its/whatevers mind.
              Axiom #2 says that God is omniscient.
              Axiom #3 says that God exists in a timeless environment.
              Conclusion:
              God knew he would change his mind(in gods terms, he already did)
              hence there was no decision to make. Gods action was determined
              for all eternity (in gods terms, NOW). 
              hence: GOD CANNOT MAKE A FREELY DETERMINED DECISION.
                     THERE ARE NO DECISIONS FOR GOD TO MAKE. 
              this yet again contradicts axiom 1.

   Now the Ultimate Conclusion:
   GOD DOES NOT HAVE FREE WILL!!!!

   This all stems from the addition of Axiom 3, the "timeless environment"
   axiom. Note that theorem proving in logic DOES NOT REQUIRE A TIME DOMAIN.
   All theorems in a given formal system are completely determined from the
   initial axioms, whether or not any of them can actually be proven. In 
   laymans terms, THIS PROOF IS VALID IN A TIMELESS DOMAIN.

   Hence (option 1) we must throw out Axiom 3. Of course, By the original 
   Free Will Argument, We then have to throw out Axiom 2, which then 
   invalidates Axiom 1. (option 2 is to say that humans do not 
   have free will) QED. 

   Unfortunately, the Wingates and the Teitzes still have one more thing they
   COULD put forth: 

   Axiom #4:
      God exists in a logic-less environment. We do not. 

   Conclusion:

      everybody should unsubscribe to net.religion.

                                       -the venn buddhist

PS. I personally choose option 1.
                        
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