Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 (Tek) 9/28/84 based on 9/17/84; site shark.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!orca!shark!hutch From: hutch@shark.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) Newsgroups: net.religion,net.religion.christian Subject: Re: Black's ravings Message-ID: <1294@shark.UUCP> Date: Fri, 22-Mar-85 02:44:52 EST Article-I.D.: shark.1294 Posted: Fri Mar 22 02:44:52 1985 Date-Received: Tue, 26-Mar-85 06:35:49 EST References: <5080@fortune.UUCP> <1958@sdcc6.UUCP> <1972@burdvax.UUCP> Reply-To: hutch@shark.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) Distribution: net Organization: Tektronix, Wilsonville OR Lines: 64 Xref: watmath net.religion:6279 net.religion.christian:508 Summary: [ Bug poison ] In article <1972@burdvax.UUCP> bnapl@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) writes: >In article brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard brower) writes: >> >>Well, I know gay ministers. Most of the ones that I know were ordained >>in denominations which were, at that time, not supportive of gay people >>at all (some have changed their views and some have not) and those ordained >>were deep in the closet. Some of them married and had children. Most >>of them have since severed their ties to their original denominations, >>due to the anti-gay sentiments of their church's hierarchy and their >>own needs to be free. Many of them are still excellent ministers to >>their flocks. Many have joined with MCC, Dignity, or other groups >>catering to gay Christians. Rev. Troy Perry and Rev. James Sandmier >>are two examples of Christian ministers (fully out, which is why I use >>their names) who have dedicated their ministries through MCC. Troy was >>a Baptist and James was a Mormon. >>-- >>Richard A. Brower Fortune Systems >>{ihnp4,ucbvax!amd,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower > >It would seem that these "ministers" are sinning in several ways. First, >the sin of homosexual activity needs to be confessed and repented of. >Second, there is the lying to one's family and friends over the sin. >In this case, they need to go to these people and ask for their >forgiveness. Sin breeds more sin and waiting only compounds the problem. Tom is missing a point here. Even given the proposition that homosexuality is a sin, which may or may not be true for Gentiles, there is no reason to assume that being a sinner invalidates one from being an active priest. If that were the case, Paul would have stopped being a minister and an evangelist, as he had a strong awareness of many of his own sins, and was often being shown even more of them. There is the same kind of tension here which we face in other parts of our lives. The sinner is saved by the grace of God. The sin may continue to be there. We do not reject the sinner. We MAY reject the sin. If these men do not have the conviction that they are sinning, and show the signs that God's Spirit is working through them, then we must assume that He will convict them of their sins, in His own good time. A reminder: Our sense of what is "sin" is severely broken. We are only able to recognise sin in ourselves. God may use us to point out the sins of others. If this is true, we are forbidden to be proud or puffed up because of it. We are instead commanded to be humbly thankful that we are given the honor of being His servants. In the not too distant past, our culture had developed a strong sense of sin. It was a sin to eat meat on Friday, it was a sin to work on the Sabbath in ANY fashion, it was a sin to speak any name which might be the Name of the Lord other than in prayer or exhortation. It was a sin to murder (but killing an escaped slave was no sin, whether that slave was a black, an indentured servant, or even an apprentice). It was a sin to speak rudely or skeptically to a member of the Church Fathers. And sex, in most of its forms, was so sinful that families with too many children were often suspect for the immorality of the husband and wife! Admittedly this is a subset of Christians, primarily those of Puritan or similar background. What we see as sinful may just be an arbitrary cultural taboo. Hutch