Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site dciem.UUCP Path: utzoo!dciem!mmt From: mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Re: The UN as a World Forum -- Reply to Kelly Message-ID: <1493@dciem.UUCP> Date: Sat, 30-Mar-85 16:25:45 EST Article-I.D.: dciem.1493 Posted: Sat Mar 30 16:25:45 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 30-Mar-85 18:09:13 EST References: Reply-To: mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) Organization: D.C.I.E.M., Toronto, Canada Lines: 41 Summary: >>I made what I thought was a fairly non-controversial statement: >>The U.N. is the world's political forum. >> >>To which mck@ratex.UUCP (Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan) replies: >> >>>NO! NO!! NO!!! The U.N. is NOT the WORLD's political forum; it is a >>>forum for the OPPRESSORS of the world! >> >First, Kelly continues to make the mistake (thru-out his posting) of >confusing governments with nations. Even if we accept democracy as a >legitimate form of representation (I don't), few-if-any governments are >legitimate agents of their nation (as an example, compare the military >policy espoused by the US ambassador with the desires of most Americans). >Second, while I object to the implications of Mr Kelly's 'Torture is >torture.' (made in an earlier posting), I would regard any nation which >systematically tortures peaceful people as oppressive, AND I WOULD >CHALLENGE MR KELLY TO FIND ONE THAT DOES NOT! Third, it should be noted I also replied to DKMcK's "UN is a forum for the OPPRESSORS" in the belief that he was referring to oppressor nations, and that he was simply worng. His response to Kelly suggests irrationality rather than simple error. The UN is indeed a forum for governments, which DKMcK now almost defines as being torturers of their peoples and therefore oppressors. So he has therefore DEFINED the UN as a forum for oppressors, so that his original statement is not about the UN at all, but about the nature of government. [Incidentally, in my response, I listed several weak nations that had brought their troubles before the UN. I included Afghanistan when I was thinking of Kampuchea. I don't know whether Afghanistan complained about the Russians before the coup (or after). I doubt they would do so now, since the government of Afghanistan is indeed the oppressor of the people, a government that invited a foreign power to help it maintain (or gain) power over its own people (remind you a bit of VietNam?).] -- Martin Taylor {allegra,linus,ihnp4,floyd,ubc-vision}!utzoo!dciem!mmt {uw-beaver,qucis,watmath}!utcsri!dciem!mmt