Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site oakhill.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!bellcore!decvax!genrad!panda!talcott!harvard!seismo!ut-sally!oakhill!davet From: davet@oakhill.UUCP (Dave Trissel) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Christianity and homosexuality Message-ID: <372@oakhill.UUCP> Date: Tue, 26-Mar-85 04:24:59 EST Article-I.D.: oakhill.372 Posted: Tue Mar 26 04:24:59 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 29-Mar-85 03:08:47 EST References: Reply-To: davet@oakhill.UUCP (Dave Trissel) Distribution: net Organization: Motorola Inc. Austin, Tx Lines: 92 Summary: In article <202@cvl.UUCP> david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) writes: >......................., nevertheless we should not forget the >apparent traditional presuppositions of the authors and readers. >Jesus and Paul largely accepted their Jewish ethical tradition, >and neither of them are famous for casuistry or for mincing words. >The fact is that homosexuality was considered to be a perversion of >nature according to Jewish tradition of the time. I am interested in any references supporting this. Boswell's book may cover this in its many nooks and crannies, but I don't remember any lengthy discussions on it. >Secondly, if either >had condoned homosexuality during that time, it surely would have >been so scandalous to contemporary non-Christian Jews that we should >be informed even today by their criticism, for example, in the Talmud. >But this is not their complaint. But there is a problem here of the counter argument. If homosexuality was so rampant in Jesus' time (it is thought that for over 200 years most of the Roman Emperers were homosexuals) wouldn't he have said at least something negative about it? Neither the Roman religion nor Roman law recognized homosexual eroticism as distinct from - much less inferior to - heterosexual eroticism. Prejudices affecting sexual behavior applied to all persons uniformly. Roman society almost unanimously assumed that adult males would be capable of, in not interested in, sexual relations with both sexes. Male prostitution was taxed by law - there was even a yearly holiday off for male prostitutes. > ..... But, in the final analysis, are >the churches to approve something which most believe to be ultimately >destructive of human personality and society? Who can forsee the >consequences of such approval? When I look at the world and its history, there is one thing which stands out above all else which has caused most of the suffering and hatred in the world, and that is INTOLERANCE of others. Think about it and see if you don't agree. Intolerance caused things from the death of Jesus to the holocaust. So, we should make your questions more accurate and get at the real root of evil in the world: Are we to approve of something which has obviously caused most of the suffering and hatred in the world (intolerance) and which ultimately is destructive of human personality and society? Who can forsee the consequences of such approval? >However, my point is that there is >nothing, that I know of, in the scriptures in favor of homosexuality; >it is always described as being under "the wrath of God" -- that is, >self-destructive. I would say that this is not obviously wrong. You have made some pretty strong attacks against a minority group. I think it only just that you present some facts to support your view. First you talk about homosexuality as being ultimately destructive of human personality and society. I presume you have seen a lot of evidence before taking on such an extreme position. Since such a belief can cause physical aggravation and psychological damage to a large segment of the population, surely you must have conclusive evidence to support it. Another denigration are the words "self-destruction" and "destruction." Again, since I presume you haven't decided that homosexuals are self-destructive in a vacuum it would be enlightening to hear of your evidence. Without evidence, I'm sure many whites in the old south were sure that the negro was just inherently inferior. You mention that in the large cities this destructive tendency is noticed. Since there are gays working and living around you everywhere why don't you notice this tendency in the samll towns, or at work, as well? >This would seem to be the meaning of "They shall know the truth, and >the truth shall set them free." You know, its funny but when I read about Jesus in the Bible, it seems most of what he did was support the down and out, the poor and the oppressed. I I don't think he once critized minorities of any type of color, race or sexual disposition. I wonder if "the truth shall set them free" applies to ridding the world of intolerant thought which causes so many problems today as it did in Jesus' time. >.......................... I realize that this is not a popular "liberal" >opinion, still I have to say what I believe is true. You certainly have every right to your opinion. All I ask is that you investigate your stand with some hard data before you draw such severe conclusions. There are many studies that have been done on gay relationships starting with Masters and Johnson data on percent of population tending toward homosexuality to "The Mendola Report" on gay 'marriages' to the latest book "The Male Couple." Better yet, get to know some on a personal basis. Chances are that you already do, you just don't know it yet. My stereotype of gays was blown wide open when I did. Dave Trissel {ihnp4,seismo,gatech}!ut-sally!oakhill!davet