Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site trwatf.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!houxm!whuxl!whuxlm!harpo!decvax!genrad!panda!talcott!harvard!seismo!trwatf!root From: root@trwatf.UUCP (Lord Frith) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: reply to Dave Trissel Message-ID: <790@trwatf.UUCP> Date: Thu, 28-Mar-85 13:21:16 EST Article-I.D.: trwatf.790 Posted: Thu Mar 28 13:21:16 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 30-Mar-85 02:02:30 EST References: <371@oakhill.UUCP> Distribution: net Organization: TRW Advanced Technology Facility, Merrifield VA. Lines: 113 > The contrast between intellectual truth and religious desire here is interest- > ing. The problem I see here is that this implies that an intellectual search > for truth is not sufficient for the investigation of religion and its eventual > acceptance. Since this has many important ramifications it would > be prudent to support this with some evidence. > It seems that you suggest that a "leap of faith" be made before God > can be revealed. If so, that puts me in a difficult situation. Since I grew > up with the "leap of faith" already made, that means that either I am now > ignoring the truths of my earlier religion, or that I never experienced the > truths it had to offer at all. I am sure that neither of these statements > are accurate. > > > I think we can agree that Pilate had no sincere religious desire > >to know whether Jesus was telling the truth. As he said, "Am I a Jew?" > >The attitude of most unbelievers is the same: "Am I a Christian (or Jew)?" > >They do not suppose that they would want to be. But they demand evidence. > > But isn't this natural? I'm sure that you didn't just jump to Christianity > without any reason of some sort. Certainly you must have had some "evidence" > that Christianity was worth the "leap of faith." I'm sure many others > besides myself would be interested in hearing how you came to believe what > you do. And maybe to balance the picture, I should show why I had to let go > of my religious beliefs. > > > A great many people are not sincere; you have only to watch > >television to see what is our popular culture. How sincerely "Christian", > >acting in the spirit of Christ, is a nation that spends 100 times as much > >for military purposes (now 50+% of the budget, for past, present, and > >proposed wars) as it does on purely non-military, .... > > I agree completely here. I wonder just how many "Christians" of today would > still be in the flock if Jesus' sayings were literally followed. How many > would gladly give up their wealth to the poor and spend their time sharing > love to those around them like Mother Teresa. > > > .............I was an unbeliever, and yet I was honest more > >than most; nevertheless I was also full of pride; do you think I > >would get on my knees and sincerely pray to God for what He wanted > >rather than what I wanted? Sincerity is not an intellectual exercise; > >it is an exercise of will. Someone who simply wants God to prove His > >existence, without the desire to do His will, is not sincere. He is > >simply testing God, which is not to be done. > > I find it fascinating that my story is just the reverse of yours. With very > minor changes it rings true for me: I was a believer, and yet I was honest > more than most, nevertheless I was also full of pride. Do you think I would > get down on my knees as a devoted Christian and sincerely pray to God for what > He wanted. After all, I already knew what God wanted and what He thinks since > the Bible tells me everything and is perfect. Satan will cause me to doubt > and will use my intellect against me, therefore it cannot be trusted. > I must not doubt God, for that would be testing Him. > > Incidently, aren't there several places in the Bible where men "tested" God? > Just to name a few, Abraham saying "if only 50 good men don't destroy the > city" followed by "45" then "40" etc. Also the "test ye the spirits to know > if they be of God." These and others would seem to tell us that we *should* > test God. Often it seems that some Christians confuse 'testing' God to > 'tempting' God. > > Yet another statement you make should be 'turned around' to apply to some > Christians as well-- > > > My feeling is that everyone who sincerely wants to know whether there is > > a God will be given sufficient reason for faith, but that not everyone is > > sincere. You have only to look around to see that many lord it over > > the others -- in their hearts, they would presume the place of God. > > They hardly want to find out that they were wrong. > > By replacing the phrase "for faith" with "for doubt" an interesting juxtapos- > ition occurs. Many presume God and hardly want to find out that they were > wrong. It cuts both ways. > > >....... And in the Letter to the Hebrews, it is said that the word > >of the Lord is sharper than any sword, penetrating our very souls. > >Certainly, I did also reject Jesus as Christ, and my arrogance was, > >in that very instant, made plain to me. As it was also to Paul on > >the road to Damascus. So sure of ourselves, we were wrong about him. > > To me, I have found certain "truths" penetrate sharper than any sword, > combining both intuition with reason producing a powerful form of > enlightenment, understanding and reaching needs otherwise unfulfilled. > When I was a Christian I was so sure of myself. Now I'm less sure, but > more realistic in my determination of what I know. Now I'm free. Free to > let the Universe unfold itself within and without me and I don't have to > force any of my interpretation into a restrictive religious mold. > > Does either of our experiences invalidate the other? I don't think so. > I believe they are at some level one and the same. My being "less sure" may > be related to your "struggle with our doubts" mentioned in your last posting. > > > > > I believe that your reply was honest. Perhaps I can > >recommend to you and others some things to read which may change > >your religious views considerably, ..... > > > > After 15 years of reading I would be suprized to find any new revolutionary > ideas which would change my veiws considerably -- but the search for deeper > truths beckons. I will indeed check into these books. Even minor new dis- > coveries are always refreshing. > > In any case, thank you for your reply. One of the great benefits of the net > is the wide variety of viewpoints encountered. > > Dave Trissel {seismo,ihnp4,gatech}!ut-sally!oakhill!davet -- UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!trwatf!root - Lord Frith ARPA: trwatf!root@SEISMO "And Frith made the world"