Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site cvl.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!umcp-cs!cvl!david From: david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: reply to Dave Trissel Message-ID: <197@cvl.UUCP> Date: Fri, 22-Mar-85 05:16:48 EST Article-I.D.: cvl.197 Posted: Fri Mar 22 05:16:48 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 30-Mar-85 03:12:41 EST Distribution: net Organization: Computer Vision Lab, U. of Maryland, College Park Lines: 140 In reply to a reply: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >From: davet@oakhill.UUCP (Dave Trissel) >[David Harwood] > > My feeling > is that everyone who sincerely wants to know whether there is a God > will be given sufficient reason for faith, but that not everyone is > sincere. You have only to look around to see that many lord it over > the others -- in their hearts, they would presume the place of God. > They hardly want to find out that they were wrong. > Please step back David and look at what you are saying. You are making a bold claim that everyone who doesn't believe in your version of a God is insincere. Do you really think that? What about someone like myself who grew up a dedicated Christian but when confronted with the contradictions involved chose to honestly face what reality was instead of blindly clinging to earlier beliefs in God. And it was very painfull. I didn't WANT to change my beliefs. It was much more psychologically confortable not to have to. But there was something within me, a yearning for Truth, that forced me to be honest and accept the consequences of being honest. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm sorry if I have offended you; but I did not insist upon anything, certainly not, as you suggest, that others must "believe in my version," unless they would be "insincere". I have several Christian and Jewish and Hindu friends, as well as some who are not "religious", who are usually sincere, but disagree with me all the time. (But my friends are very good-hearted and open-minded; and simply because we have cultural and personal prejudices does not mean that we are insincere.) You have cast my words with an intention which is not mine, but which I understand to be related to your own experience. It is you, apparently, who now thinks that belief in God is self-deception, and evasion of the truth; but if you think this about your former self, then do you think this about others also? You might say that we are "self-deceiving", just as you may believe that I say that others are not "sincere". Actually, I never doubted that there are those who are sincerely unbelieving. But I was talking about what experience was necessary for one who would be faithful, if only he did believe that God exists; I was not talking about "intellectual sincerity", but about "religious sincerity". My point is that God provides us with enough evidence for the faith we would sincerely desire, except for the struggle with our doubts; nevertheless, He does not compel us to assent to what we would not desire. From what you have said about yourself, while you are intellectually sincere, like my friends, you do not now desire faith, even though you may want to see compelling evidence. But we may say that God provides for our hearts' victory, rather than for its assent. Is this my opinion only? I remember that Jesus said to Pilate, "It is for this reason that I have come into the world. And all who will hear the truth, they shall hear my voice." But Pilate said, "What is truth?" then turned away. My question is -- Was Pilate sincere? Yes and no. Pilate may have been intellectually sincere, as skepticism is often so called, and might have assented to evidence, which Jesus did not provide, but he certainly had no religious desire to know the truth, and would need be compelled, having no sincere desire to know the will of God. I think we can agree that Pilate had no sincere religious desire to know whether Jesus was telling the truth. As he said, "Am I a Jew?" The attitude of most unbelievers is the same: "Am I a Christian (or Jew)?" They do not suppose that they would want to be. But they demand evidence. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Back in my earlier years I would have said just what you did. So I very well understand why you said it. But I suggest that you examine the damages your belief system holds as well as its advantages. Do you think it beneficial that you feel justified in labeling millions of people insincere just because they don't accept the same concepts as you do? If there were ever to be such a thing as a judgement day, I wouldn't be afraid. Since God supposedly sees into the heart, He/She would know I've dealt with the issues of Her/His existence with all integrity and openness. Dave Trissel {seismo,gatech,ihnp4}!ut-sally!oakhill!davet ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Do we disagree? I'm sure that God is not less merciful than we are, and that no one is condemned simply because he is mistaken. Besides, my concern is not our judgement by God in an afterlife; it is what should we do in this life. If we destroy this "world in the hand", why should we be given some other "in the bush"? Simply because we profess to believe a formula, e.g. "Jesus is the Christ."? As Jesus said about those who are insincere, "Why do you call me 'Lord', and not do what I say?" No, even though they may assent intellectually to the right formulae, I believe they are hypocrites, even as he said. A great many people are not sincere; you have only to watch television to see what is our popular culture. How sincerely "Christian", acting in the spirit of Christ, is a nation that spends 100 times as much for military purposes (now 50+% of the budget, for past, present, and proposed wars) as it does on purely non-military, uninvested foreign assistance to poor nations. Is "mutually assured destruction" an advice of the Gospel? Are we told by Jesus that we we should indefinitely secure an incredible peace on Earth with probable horror -- with threats of horrifying retaliation against hundreds of millions of the innocent, who have no military ambitions and no real political authority? Even if we should be destroyed by nuclear weapons tomorrow, how could could anyone sincerely justify retaliation, in the name of Christ? I understand that you believe that I am prejudging those intellectually honest unbelievers, but I am not. All I said about them was that if they were sincere (wanting to know God so that they might do his will), then I believe they will be given sufficient reason for faith. I was an unbeliever, and yet I was honest more than most; nevertheless I was also full of pride; do you think I would get on my knees and sincerely pray to God for what He wanted rather than what I wanted? Sincerity is not an intellectual exercise; it is an exercise of will. Someone who simply wants God to prove His existence, without the desire to do His will, is not sincere. He is simply testing God, which is not to be done. Finally, I don't believe that we are condemned or acquited according to "labels" or what we profess to believe. We often do not fully understand even what we profess to believe. As you say, it is God who judges our hearts. In the beginning of Luke, it is prophesized to Mary about the infant Jesus, that Christ would be a sign that would be rejected, come to judge even her own thoughts as well as those of others. And in the Letter to the Hebrews, it is said that the word of the Lord is sharper than any sword, penetrating our very souls. Certainly, I did also reject Jesus as Christ, and my arrogance was, in that very instant, made plain to me. As it was also to Paul on the road to Damascus. So sure of ourselves, we were wrong about him. It seems to me more important than what we profess to believe is whether we actually do want to live as God would have us, and as Jesus has shown us the way. If an unbeliever would live as Christ has shown us, charitably without violence and hypocrisy, then he is living as God would have us live. The matter of his professed faith seems to be far less important. As John says, we are known by our love for one another, even as He has loved us. I believe that your reply was honest. Perhaps I can recommend to you and others some things to read which may change your religious views considerably, if you really want: the Anchor Bible translation of the Gospel of John, trans. by Raymond Brown, 2 volumes with very extensive commentary; Guide for the Perplexed, by Moses Maimonides; Tolstoi's autobiographical "My Confession"; the "Journal" of George Fox, founder of the Society of Friends.