Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!crsp!gargoyle!scott From: scott@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP (Scott Deerwester) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Invitation for Scott Deerwester Message-ID: <398@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> Date: Thu, 4-Apr-85 15:50:07 EST Article-I.D.: gargoyle.398 Posted: Thu Apr 4 15:50:07 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 5-Apr-85 04:09:41 EST References: <> Reply-To: scott@gargoyle.UUCP ( Deerwester) Organization: U. Chicago - Computer Science Lines: 96 Summary: Rich invited me to react to an account of a (mystical?) experience that he posted recently. This article is my response and is in two parts. The first (which I'm very sure will not be at all satisfying to Rich) is my reaction to the article. The second is a short exposition on the role of subjectivity in the acquisition of faith in God. Rich, I liked the account that you posted. It was, if nothing else, good prose. I found the imagery very effective. It sounds a lot like something that a Mooney or somebody from The Way, International might write. Both rely heavily on weekend *intensive* "seminars" as indoctrination methods. They (at least the Moonies) allow people very little sleep, no privacy and essentially bombard them with experiences until their defenses are simply worn out and they're willing to accept about anything. When you're disoriented enough and are ready to reach out to something or somebody for support, they make very sure that the nearest person is somebody who can help you "understand" what's happening to you. Powerful technique. The account that you posted sounds a lot like that. People can be manipulated into having very powerful experiences by somebody who knows what they're doing. Please note: No matter what the source of your posting, I found it very interesting. Now, some comments on experience and what it means in acquiring faith. I've not claimed that *my* experience can or should be a basis for *your* faith. But my faith is more that just a mind game. (Flame retardant: I'm not asserting that anything *is* a mind game, just that my faith isn't one.) It may well be possible to construct a set of doctrines that is self consistent, provable from basic axioms, etc. There may be *lots* of such sets. It's not enough, however, for a set of beliefs to just be reasonable. Plausibility isn't the same as veracity. So how do you decide if something that's reasonable is true? First you look to see if the belief set, taken as is, is reasonable. The fundamental tenets of Christianity have been presented many times before in this forum. Basically: - God created the universe in general and man in particular. - Man sinned and fell away from God. - Jesus was born in accordance with prophesy and lived a sinless life. - He gave his life and this act was sufficient to permit Man to be restored to fellowship with God. - He was resurrected and ascended to be with God the Father. - He gave the Holy Spirit to live within, guide and comfort all those who believe in Him. So what about experience? The scripture says that "God is love". If that love makes no practical difference in my life, then it might as well not be true. I *need* to *experience* God's love for me in order for it to change me. That experience is inherently, unalterably, subjective. Another example: the scripture says "Taste and see that the Lord is good." That's saying, "yes, these things are true, but come and experience how good God is for yourself." Another place in the Bible it says, "He drew them with cords of human compassion." One of the ways that He loves me - i.e. that He shows His love to me - is by the love that He puts in the hearts of His children for me. *Of course*, experience isn't enough to prove anything, all by itself. *Of course*, people's senses can deceive them. But if the scripture says things are supposed to happen a certain way, perhaps with certain conditions on my part, then my faith grows as my experience bears out the truth of the scripture. How do I know that God lives? By what He does. And He's the same God to me as He was to His children that He led out of Egypt and loves me with the same love that they experienced. Remember how God would identify Himself when He addressed His people? "The God who led you out of Egypt... the God who fed you for forty years in the desert... the God who drove out nations before you..." They, the children of Israel, knew and know Him because of the ways in which He intervened in their lives. He was called their Deliverer because, in specific circumstances, He delivered them. He was their Rock because, when they couldn't rely on anyone or anything around them, He showed Himself to be unchanging and faithful. A final note to you, Rich. My faith in my Lord is very close to center. The things that He shows me, and the things that He does in my life are among the most treasured things that I've got. I'm really not concerned about whether my faith can stand up to scrutiny or not. I'm confident that it can. But frankly, you show so little respect to the people that you interact with on the net that I'm not very anxious to talk about things that are precious to me only to have you ridicule and belittle them. -- Scott Deerwester Graduate Library School University of Chicago ...!ihnp4!gargoyle!scott UUCP scott@UChicago.CSNet CSNet scott@UChicago.ARPA ARPA