Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site sfmag.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxn!mhuxm!sftig!sftri!sfmag!samet From: samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Stop the anglo-saxon hebrew!! Message-ID: <536@sfmag.UUCP> Date: Fri, 29-Mar-85 10:48:26 EST Article-I.D.: sfmag.536 Posted: Fri Mar 29 10:48:26 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 30-Mar-85 04:06:50 EST References: <23760@lanl.ARPA> Distribution: net Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Summit, NJ Lines: 60 > Most Ashkenazim in the world have adopted the correct Sephardic > pronounciation of Hebrew, and it is used everywhere in the > world except in the United States, and some places in England. For SPOKEN Hebrew, which was revived in the 20th century, Sephardic pronunciation is the norm, EVEN in the US. Ashkenazim accepted this norm because Israel did, not because they decided after centuries that they were "wrong". Hebrew prayer is a traditional practice and therefore a different matter. Ashkenazic or Sephardic traditions in prayer are not "incorrect". The halacha regards them both as valid. On the contrary, there is a serious question about changing from your father's custom of pronunciation (in prayer) because you may be scorning the religious practices of your parents and theirs (as you do when you refer to our great grandfathers' prayer dialect as "pigeoen" Hebrew, chas v'sholom). I saw discussions of this from Rav Moshe Feinstein, and from Rav Henken z"l. The approach is that even though we have different linguistic traditions, each is halachically valid. However, mixing two traditions in prayer or kria Hatorah is apparently a serious question. > I have unfortunately become accustomed to American pigeon Hebrew > such as "shabbes" for shabbat, "yontif" for yom tov, etc., That's not American, it's Yiddish. You don't like Yiddish...!? > ... when a recent posting starts using terms like "ha'maisim" > for "ha'metim", it's time to stop the language degradation. Degradation refers to change. This is one of many valid traditions, not a change. Contrary to your impressions, this type of pronunciation is widely used in Torah discussion, and certainly in prayer. Some feel that Sephardic (or Teimani) pronunciation has changed least, but that view is not universal. Some change is clear, because "taf" and "saf(thaf)" are indistinguishable in prevailing Sephardic dialect. Even so, it seems that certain changes introduced into loshon hakodesh were accepted. The forms of Hebrew in the Torah, the mishna, the Rambam, other rishonim, and the Ramchal and are all different. Modern Hebrew, "as she are spoke" by the multitudes, is heavily influenced by European syntax and modern words. If you are sensitive to degradation, you might object to that, because it's a relatively recent development. > I hope that some of the orthodox Jews on this net would stop > separating themselves from the rest of the Jewish world ... We're clearly not separating ourselves or we wouldn't be on the net. Just being natural. There are many flowers in Hashem's garden. Don't imagine that the "the Jewish world" is divided into guys like you and guys from Williamsburg. (If you aren't a rose then you must be a weed. - Alice in Wonderland) Yitzchok Samet