Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site decwrl.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!mcnc!decvax!ucbvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-nisysg!black From: black@nisysg.DEC Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Hypocrisy Message-ID: <1385@decwrl.UUCP> Date: Thu, 28-Mar-85 17:04:03 EST Article-I.D.: decwrl.1385 Posted: Thu Mar 28 17:04:03 1985 Date-Received: Mon, 1-Apr-85 03:05:00 EST Sender: johnsson@decwrl.UUCP Organization: DEC Engineering Network Lines: 257 >> Does the Canadian government actually violate this fundamental right? >> [Greg Kuperberg] >I have to agree with Greg on this one. I think Nazis, Communists, >Ku Klux Klan members *all* should have the right to speak and express >their opinions. I was upset to hear that a speech by members of the >Army War College at a university in New York City was interrupted by >catcalls and a melee to the point they were not allowed to speak. >So long as those people who support peace rather than war also have the >right to speak I see nothing wrong with letting militarists try to >defend their position. > tim sevener whuxl!orb I'm glad we agree on *something*! >Mr. Black's articles have always been churning with passionate >convictions with little evidence. But I think he has gone a little >too far this time. Is he really subtly suggesting that 6 million Jews >were not massacred in WW II? No, I'm not saying anything subtly. I'm saying right out that I personally do not believe the story of the Holocaust. >>> From Don Black: >> Some interesting points were raised, including the fact that the >> judge failed to take judicial notice that the Holocaust actually took >> place thus placing the burden of proof that it took place on the plaintiff. >> Scientific and forensic evidence was presented by Zundel that it never took >> place. Alleged eyewitnesses to the event were time and again proven >> to be telling falsehoods. >> >> This is exactly the thing that Constitutional reformers want for the >> United States. They don't want anybody to go digging around in Orwellian >> Memory Holes, so they can spout only their version of history. Granted >> some horrible things took place during World War 2. But at least let's >> get at the truth, whatever it may be. The court record of the Ernst Zundel trial is a public record in Toronto, is it not? The Associated Press went into detail about the testimony, both eyewitness and expert. The cat is out of the bag. Somebody is speaking with forked tongue. Let's find out the truth. >"Granted some horrible things took place"! Mr. Black if you want why don't >you go to Germany and visit Auschwitz at first hand for yourself. Read >"The Diary of Anne Frank", read William Shirer's account of the rise and >fall of the Third Reich. The figure of 6 million Jews killed may be >more or less than the actual number. That millions were killed and the >rest persecuted by the Nazis is a fact which cannot be reasonably disputed. Oh, yes, I CAN dispute the "millions killed." Just because something is repeated over and over, it isn't automatically the truth. I'd love to go to Auschwitz to do my own research. I'm sure that the story of the Holocaust will stand up against scientific forensic evidence. I've read several of Mr. Shirer's books--"Berlin Diary," "The End of a Berlin Diary," "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." I've also read "The Diary of Anne Frank." And about 200 other books on World War II. (May I suggest "The Arms of Krupp," by William Manchester?) They still don't "prove" the killing of SIX MILLION Jews. I could accept a total of six million war casualties, but not six million of one particular group. And while we're on the subject, we all seem to be ignoring the problems faced by Jew and Christian alike under the various Communist regimes world- wide. For example, Lenin and Stalin have not been condemned for the genocide of 140 million Christians, Jews, and Moslems after the Bolshevic Revolution. And how about the ongoing genocide in Afganhistan? >Or how about this piece of paranoia?: >> I'm proud to be an American chuavinist. The United Nations is nothing >> more than a hotbed of Communist infiltrators, formed by Communist conspirators, >> to serve the purposes of international Communism. The lion only wants to >> lay down with the lamb in its belly. Why is it that American blood gets shed >> every time some little banana republic has a revolt? We get engaged in so >> many petty quarrels that we fail to see the real issues, the problems >> here at home that are destroying our own society. >Are you telling me that Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt were "Communist >conspirators"? You do realize that Roosevelt was as much as anyone else >the founder of the United Nations don't you? But *of course* Roosevelt >was that commie that sponsored the New Deal. He was also the most subtle >of Communists since he did hardly anything that might prove that he was >actually a Communist. He even fooled major industrialists to serve on >the various Economic Boards during World War II- these premier capitalists >never once suspecting that really Roosevelt was a Communist. >Not only that but he got Henry Wallace to launch his own Progressive >campaign for President so that Roosevelt would look like a moderate >when Wallace said he was too conservative. >"If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, quacks like a duck: > it must be a cow!!" You said a mouthfull. I said at the beginning that we agreed on a few things. About the only thing you missed is that the Comintern and the elected US government was at the time, and still is, controlled by the international banking cartel in New York. (I like the term "American Chauvinist." I'm going to get a lot of mileage out of it.) >I'll bet you didn't know Mr. Black that actually our whole society is going >to pot because it's been infiltrated by *aliens from outer space*. >How do I know? Well, I leave it to you to prove otherwise. All I have to >do is make the statement, *I* don't have to present any evidence for it. You miss the true source of the Aliens. Whereever they originate, they're streaming into the country across our southern border, and nobody has any inclination to stop them. It doesn't matter that they're placing a tremendous burden on the American public, or they they are carrying diseases such as tuberculosis, leprosy, and plague. It doesn't matter that they have occupied Los Angeles, Miami, and Chicago (by official INS figures). (Aahhhh-- Black is anti-Hispanic, too! So I set myself up for more denunciations. What else is new? Sorry, Charley! In this case, my information is the PUBLIC RECORD of the Federal Immigration and Naturalization Service. Stick that one in yer ear.) >Please present your evidence that > 1)Roosevelt was a Communist > 2)our society has *not* been infiltrated by *aliens from outer space* >tim sevener whuxl!orb The discussion of item 2 belongs in net.ufo. I would refer the reader to an organization called MUFON for more information. Now how about this goodie: >> I also believe that anyone, no matter what his political or religious >> beliefs, has the right to have his views heard and considered. That's >> still contained in the Constitution, the last time I looked. > >I don't think you meant quite what you said. > >Although I do indeed have the right to say what I want, >I do not have the right to force anyone else to listen, >nor may I force anyone else to transmit my messages. > >Thus, I do not have the right to have my views "heard and considered," >and that right is not guaranteed in the Constitution. > >Or did you mean something else? > > > --Andrew Koenig Andy, your words speak for themselves. You're obviously confused. I cannot "force" DECWRL to output my submissions. Nor can I "force" any individual to read them. (Did I twist your arm to turn on you terminal and read USENET?) >If my reputation gets ruined because people accuse me of being a Communist >whether such accusations are true or not, then our country will have come >to a sorry state and I also do not want a stake in any system which would >ruin someone on such a basis. We may be heading in that direction but >I doubt that the situation will reach the point it did under McCarthyism. >The time for that is past. What may become the new basis of persecution >if the New Right has its way is "secular humanism". As netters may be aware >several years ago the Congress very foolishly acceded to right-wingers >demand to ban "secular humanism" from the nation's schools. That nobody >has been able to clearly define "secular humanism" (except that it is >every reasonable conclusion of science that the ranting right disagrees >with) does not prevent its possibility for being used as a tool of >persecution-it may even make it better, for how can one disprove that one >is a "secular humanist"? >Galileo, Copernicus, Darwin does this all sound vaguely familiar? > tim sevener whuxl!orb > democratic socialist and proud of it! Nowadays, it's a heckova lot easier to smear somebody's reputation by calling him a "Nazi" or a "racist," or by even suggesting that he's anti- semetic. It's quite fashionable to be a Communist, a socialist, etc. I guess people figure that if they identify with the One-World-Government conspiracy, they might be treated better when it gets here. But God help those who oppose it. By the way, the term "Nazi" is derived from the Nationalsozialistische deutsche Arbeiterpartei, or the National Socialist German Workers' Party. Socialist workers party--Hmmmm, where have we heard that term before? I can see you haven't done too much homework on Humanism, Tim. Humanism was defined for the first time in 1933 in the booklet "The Humanist Manifesto," which was signed by (amongst others) R. Lester Mondale (does the name Mondale ring a bell?) and the "renowned" educator John Dewey. There are actually at least two booklets in the series, Manifesto I and II.) Humanism was recognized as a religion by the US Supreme Court in Torasco vs Watkins (367 US 488). Check the footnotes on the decision for more information and references. Now, assuming that Humanism is defined as a religion, why is it OK for the Left to require that Christianity be purged from the schools, but it is not OK for the "ranting right" to complain about Humanism? Isn't that rather hypocritical? (Why is it that the Right is always "ranting" and "raving?" I don't understand.) I submit that it might be better if the government schools stuck to the teaching of reading, writing, and arithmetic, and left the teaching of ethics, values, religion, sex, et alia to the parents, where it belongs. As for persecution because of a belief in Humanism, you shouldn't have any problem, so long as nobody messes with the Constitution. Freedom of religion and all that good stuff, you understand. Now, mess with the Constitution, and I promise there will be many p*****-off patriots out in the streets carrying Chairman Mao's source of power. I mourn the loss of Freedom of Speech and Expression in Canada. Well, your constitution was the decision of the Canadian people. You voted it in, you live with it. Some day it will bite you. And then it might be too late. Can you imagine if we had similar laws here in the States? Louis Farakhan would be behind bars, for sure. And then we'd have ten million or so of his followers holding New York City as ransom for his release. And you know what? I'd be there helping! The J.D.L. would have been run out of town years ago. We never would have been able to whip up enough patriotic fervor to win either world war ("Why fight 'em? Ain't we supposed to love 'em?"). John Brown's material probably would have been banned thus prolonging the agonies of slavery. So be grateful. The pendulum swings both ways. It's a shame that Communists (that is, the little guy out in the trenches) don't understand that they are the pawns of the very capitalists they are supposed to be destroying. The same people that financed the Bolshevic Revolution are the exact same people that bought out the Wilson administration, and they've bought out every national election since. Communism is only the facade for bigger, worse things. They need a diversion, an external threat, while they play their little mind games and consolidate their power internally. Americans only see the handwriting on the wall when their backs are to it. For more information on Communism, I recommend the publications of the John Birch Society, whose addresses are 395 Concord Avenue Belmont MA 02178 (Right next to the post office, near the railroad station. From Harvard, take the Belmont Center bus to the end of the line. Open Monday thru Friday, 9 to 5.) and 2627 Mission St. San Marino CA 91108 In Hoc signo, vinces. Don Black