Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site aecom.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!whuxl!whuxlm!harpo!decvax!genrad!panda!talcott!harvard!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!aecom!teitz From: teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) Newsgroups: net.religion,net.politics Subject: Re: Don Black, Nazis, and the amazing disappearing Holocaust Message-ID: <1345@aecom.UUCP> Date: Mon, 1-Apr-85 15:04:53 EST Article-I.D.: aecom.1345 Posted: Mon Apr 1 15:04:53 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 3-Apr-85 03:23:34 EST References: <2580@ihuxf.UUCP> Distribution: net Organization: Albert Einstein Coll. of Med., NY Lines: 204 Xref: watmath net.religion:6457 net.politics:8341 > > Was Hitler wrong in killing the Jews? Well, history has already made that > judgement, he lost the war. Therefore, even by his standards he can be > judged a failure and in the wrong. Is he wrong JUST because he exterminated > 6 million Jews? That one is tougher. Sure the simple answer is that genocide > is evil and since Hitler tried to kill all of the Jews, he is evil too. > This is a very nice and simple answer. It has the added benefit that it removes > from the listener any responsibility to THINK. However, the truth is that > the issue of the phenomena of Nazism is much more complex and still deserves > more objective study. > I really do not believe what I am reading. Was Hitler wrong? If he had won the war, would he be right? How can a man, for any twisted crazy ideal go and kill one person, let alone 6,000,000. What right does any person have to kill innocent people. Were the Jews trying to overthrow Germany? were they menacing people. The phenomenon of nazism is indeed complex. How did the world not see it for the evil it is. How did almost the entire word stand by and watch idly as an army massacred a people? Why did the US army not bomb the rail lines leading into Auschwitz? ( yes, I blame America too, but this does not mean that the nazis were correct. In fact they were worse. The non-action of America is contemptable. The action of the nazis for perpetrating the crimes they did are worse. In America a man is considered evil for killing one person. That is why murder is illegal. It is wrong and should not be done. How can a man who killed 6,000,000 people be considered anything but evil. > What pisses me off is that since Hitler did commit this "atrocity", people > use that as an excuse to remove their own guilt for things that they did during > the war. > Hey, how about a little quiz? > > Which country is the only country to use atomic weapons on fellow human > being? > What is the name of the country that in World War II fire-bombed Dresden > for three day when it knew that Dresden didn't have any significant war > industry? > Which "freedom-loving" country suspended the civil rights of a group of > citizens simply because ethnically they were of Japanese origin? > Good points, all of them. But this does not justify Hitler in any way. > Of course people will say, "Oh, but look what Hitler did to the Jews!!". > This makes me sick. Does that make what we did right? I think that you > all know the answer to that. But, my, isn't it ironic that the people who have > gotten the most mileage out of the holocaust are the Jews? They got their > own state out of it and the support of the United States since it's > creation. And, my, look at all of the wonderful things that they have > done in Lebanon and the Middle East in general! But hey, you can't > criticize them. Oh, no, look what Hitler did to them. The U.S. withdraw > support!! No, we can't do that, look at all the problems they've had! > Milage. Do you judge the rightness and wrongness of action by mileage? Is that what is important to you? The Jews got teir homeland back ( yes, it was theirs first ) because the world wasn't willing to promise tat it would give the Jews a place in their homes where they ( the Jews ) would be safe from persecution. The world was not willing to stand up and say that the Jews would be safe with them. So they gave the Jews a place for themselves. ( Looks like a nice theory ). Maybe, in reality, the world was admitting its error and trying to rectifythe situation of its abandoning of the Jews? The reason the US supports Israel has little to do with the holocaust. Israel is the only stable democracy in the area, aside from being the only ally America has in the entire world. The arabs side up to America as true friends but they only want the destruction of Israel. That is teir u is their sole intent. The Israelis invaded Lebanon, not to expand their borders, they can hardly sustain what they have already, but rather because Israel's northern border villages were being bombed constantly, and the citizens couldn't live normal lives. What else have the Israelis done in the Middle East? Did they mount an army of 40 million to attack a country on the day it declared its independence? Do they set bombs in civillian busses to kill innocent bystanders? When the Israeli Army entered Lebanon leaflets were dropped over cities and villages warning citizens of what was about to happen and telling them to relocate until the battle was over. Do the arabs put labels on bombs that they leave on Israeli busses? Do terrorists who kill innocent athletes ( at the Olympics ) and children ( read the papers about 15 years ago and more recently when a bus was commandeered and the terrorists eventually killed but not before civilians were murdered, do they leave warning notes to make sure no one gets hurt accidentally? More about the Middle East. Syria hates Jordan, Iraq hate Iran, Iran hates almost everyone, everyone hate Libya, Egypt can't get along with Syria. These are all Arab states in the Middle East. Israel is the smallest problem of them all. The arabs states butcher each other and themselves ( look at what Assad did to the city of Hamma. 50,000 people exterminated without a mention in the news, barely ).Why is Israel the Middle East problem. Hussein in Jordan kicked out the PLO. Why? Because they were nice, fun loving people? No, because they wanted to take over his country, which was set up by the British mandate to be the home of the palestinians ( along s. So, why do you make Israel out as the bad guy? Iran and Iraq have been fighting for 5 years. All the Israeli wars combined don't last that long. There are more casualties in the iraq-iran war than in any Israeli war. Why is that not a problem? Do the countries of the world go running to stop them? Harly. But when Israel has the Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syria n armies running after just 6 days everyone says that its wrong and the war must stop. In 1973, when the arabs were winning the war no one cried to stop. As soon as Israel turned the tables there was a hue and cry. Why have the arabs attacked the Israelis so often? Israeli atrocities, bullshit ( and I never use these terms ). The arabs have been trying to finish Hitler's work. But Hitler was a hero, I forgot. So the arabs are great too. If the US did not support Israel the entire area would be under communist control. Maybe you favor that too. Israel is an invaluable partner to the US. They supply the US with intelligence information that has recently been valued at over 50 billion dollars ( I read this in a paper, although I don't remember offhand which ). Not a bad investment for the US I would say. > Personally I have alot more respect for Hitler and the Nazis than I do for > the Jews. The Jews were just victims. At least the Nazis had ideals > for which they willing to fight and die for and yes even commit "atrocities" > for. Which of the three do you think takes more courage? > Firstly, did the Jews not have ideals for which they were willing to die? Are victims to be left with nothing? Why prosecute the murderer? He stood up for something. The dead man was a dumb victim. If I were to rob your house would you let me keep what I took because I was willing to stand up for something and you were a victim? The crusaders could have used someone like you. Who gives a damn what is right and what is wrong, if you believe do as you wish. I believe that people like you should be killed in the most painful manner possible. Does that mean I have the right to do this? No. > But isn't it so much easier to close your eyes, condemn the Nazis (who will > argue with you?) and pretend that Hitler was insane? > Isn't it much easier to say that Hitler was right and let's do it again? ( Who would argue with you, except the Jews, but they're victims so who cares about them ). > --------------------- > [The following is reprinted without permission from the Chicago Tribune. > "Our 'good neighbors'" by Peter Gorner. Feb. 17, 1985] > > Romanian Orthodox Bishop Viorel Trifa...had been a leader of the > viciously anti-semitic Romanian fascist Iron Guard and as a newspaper > editor in Bucharest, had incited his countrymen to the 1941 riot in which > Jewish men, women and children where skinned alive and left hanging on > meat hooks in a slaughterhouse. > Before being deported to Portugal last year, Trifa complained to the press > that he was a victim of the times. "The point was to revive the Holocaust," > he said, "But all this talk by the Jews about the Holocaust is going to > backfire - against the Jews. Something," he says darkly, "will be done." > Such a telling response is unusual, Ryan says. Most of the people he > prosecuted have admitted to nothing. The lack of contrition, he says, began > to haunt him in 1981 when he proved that John Demjanjuk, a Cleveland automaker, > was in truth "Ivan the Terrible," the infamous Ukrainian sadist who manned the > pumps for the Nazi gas chamber at the Treblinka killing camp. > "He was absolutely impassive in court," Ryan says, "His family didn't know > about his past. They were being tortured every day. The evidence was over- > whelming. I was looking for some sign... some acknowledgement... some > conscience. But there was nothing. > "Demjanjuk was not special, no more unique than a cockroach. But the Nazi > attitude he represents is significant. In his smug silence he was telling us > something: 'I did it once and got way with it. I won't explain how or why, > for if I did, you might understand it a little better than you did before > and learn how to recognize it better when it rears its head again.'" > -- > And you advocate doing this again, by saying Hitler wasn't wrong. He was wrong and w mustn't shut our eyes to it. Other countries were also wrong and must admit it. But to say because someone else is wrong therefore I am right is incorrect. I have had to use extreme control not to flame you and call you all kinds of evil things. You are sicker than Don Black , in that he thinks nothing happened. You think something did, and that it wasn't wrong. You need help in the worst way possible. You have to be taught between right and wrong. I sincerely hope you go for counselling soon. Eliyahu Teitz. > Russell Spence > (new path ->) ihnp4!ihuxf!russ > AT&T Technologies > Naperville, IL *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***