Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site unc.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!whuxlm!harpo!decvax!mcnc!unc!wfi From: wfi@unc.UUCP (William F. Ingogly) Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner Message-ID: <316@unc.UUCP> Date: Wed, 3-Apr-85 19:38:50 EST Article-I.D.: unc.316 Posted: Wed Apr 3 19:38:50 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 5-Apr-85 02:26:34 EST References: <216@unc.UUCP> <292@unc.UUCP> Reply-To: wfi@unc.UUCP (William F. Ingogly) Organization: CS Dept., U. of N. Carolina at Chapel Hill Lines: 64 Summary: >>>>The best English language book of the 20th century is very probably >>>>Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings". > >> The semantic content of these statements is clear and unambiguous. >> There's no information about the authors' intentions, so I'm totally >> incapable of commenting on whatever it was that you `really' meant. >> If you can show me ANYTHING in these statements that qualifies the >> superlative `best,' please point it out to me. I'm always ready and >> willing to learn. >> >> -- Regards, Bill. > >Sorry, Bill. The statements all involved art works. There are no >objective methods of judging one work of art (be it literature, music, >sculpture, etc.) to be superior to another. One man's masterwork is >often another man's bird-cage liner. Therefore, any statement "The best >English language book is ..." automatically implies that the sentence >should be interpreted as "I/We/Somebody/Most think the best English >language book is ..." Aaaargh. First of all, I'd like to suggest that further discussion of this matter be posted to net.flame; I really don't want to bore the readers of this newsgroup with an endless series of postings and responses on this subject. We're here to discuss SF, right? Perhaps I should explain why this sort of statement (i.e., 'the best X in the last N years') bothers me. I've had a lifelong obsession with literature and with the written word as a communication medium. My career in computer science has exposed me to a great deal of bad writing and faulty communication, both written and oral. It's unbelievable how much money, time, and energy are wasted in our society because we undervalue communication skills and overemphasize technical specialization. As an undergraduate English major, I learned to approach all literature critically. Written or oral statements that began 'the best book' were simply not tolerated. In addition to reading a great deal of literature, an English major is also exposed to theories of criticism. Few responsible critics I'm familiar with would stick their necks out and label a work the best in its genre since (say) World War II. I'm not saying strong statements of this nature are not made by literary critics; it's just that flames in the field of literary criticism can lead to lost jobs and ruined reputations. As a result, professional critics make damned sure that strong claims are backed up by strong evidence. If I've hurt anyone's feelings in this newsgroup, I apologize. I will not apologize for the intensity of my feelings about the use and abuse of language even in a 'fun' newsgroup like net.sf-lovers. The latest responder argues that all judgements about art are subjective (to avoid further flames, I quote: "...There are no objective methods of judging one work of art...to be superior to another..."). From this statement he leaps to the conclusion that statements of a work's superiority must of course be interpreted as qualified judgements: "...should be interpreted as 'I/We/Somebody/Most think...'" Sorry, people, I still don't see it. For some reason, I still want to read the statement rerequoted at the top of this response as an absolute judgement about the superior value of a work of fiction. And if you're going to claim that Somebody thinks X is best or Most think X is best, please quote your sources. Chalk it up to stubbornness, pedantry, or idiocy, if you will :-) , I still think my original judgement was on target. Can we get on to other things now? -- Peace, Bill Ingogly