Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site bunker.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!bellcore!decvax!ittvax!bunker!garys
From: garys@bunker.UUCP (Gary M. Samuelson)
Newsgroups: net.abortion
Subject: Re: Re: Comment to T. C. Wheeler
Message-ID: <800@bunker.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 11-Apr-85 11:19:34 EST
Article-I.D.: bunker.800
Posted: Thu Apr 11 11:19:34 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 13-Apr-85 04:53:43 EST
References: <3513@alice.UUCP> <773@bunker.UUCP> <928@ihuxk.UUCP>
Organization: Bunker Ramo, Trumbull Ct
Lines: 77

T. C. Wheeler said that abortion is murder, regardless of
its purpose.  I said that determining purpose is essential
in determining if a given act is murder.  P. Cioni apparently
takes me to mean that abortion is OK; this is a misunderstanding.

(By the way, P. Cioni's comments, several hundred characters,
were all on one line.  Someone has broken software somewhere.)

> Mr. Samuelson, you're right about murder being knowingly
> taking a life.

Not exactly; I said that murder is knowingly and wrongfully
taking a human life.  Self defense is not murder, though
it may be done knowingly.  Accidentally causing someone's
death is not murder, though you may be held responsible;
in this case, the death is wrongful but was not knowingly
caused.

> If you believe that a fetus is not a human
> before a certain time, then my comments are not going to
> phase you.

Good, I wouldn't want to be 'phased'.  (Perhaps you meant
'fazed'?)  Actually, your comments do not faze me, but
for a completely different reason: you misunderstood me.
I *do* believe that a fetus is a human being (apparently
you are new to the net).  I also admit that there are those
who believe otherwise.  Someone who *unknowingly* kills a
human being is not guilty of murder, but, possibly, of
something else.  This doesn't mean I think abortion is
right, only that it isn't necessarily "murder" -- a word
I think should be used more precisely (along with a lot
more terms).

> My understanding of human life is that a human
> becomes a human upon conception, therefore, a 2 week fetus
> is considered a human being and having an abortion constitutes
> murder since this fetus is a human.

If someone who shared your understanding had an abortion,
then her action would indeed be murder (or self-defense, etc.).
If someone who does not share your understanding has an abortion,
then it is not "murder," since she does *not* know she is killing
a human being.  Now, I happen to think that she is incorrect in
her understanding and that her action is wrong, but it doesn't
fit the *legal* definition of murder.

> The woman having the
> abortion has been told she is pregnant and is expecting a
> BABY, not an it, which is what people seem to assume, (ie:
> a fetus is not a human being) and opts to have an abortion
> is knowingly killing a human being.

How can someone be knowingly killing a human being, when
that same person claims that it is not a human being?  Are
you calling all those who say that the fetus is not a human
being liars?  I think they're wrong, but I don't think
they're liars (that is another word used much too loosely
on the net).  Those who think the fetus is a human being
can attempt to convince those who think otherwise that
they're wrong, and vice versa.  And those who think that
abortion is wrong should provide alternatives -- and many do
just that.

Of course, there are those who agree that the fetus is a
human being, or say that the question is irrelevant, and maintain
that they nevertheless have the right to kill the fetus if
they so desire.  This attitude I have a big problem with.

> Please send flames and comments to me via electronic mail
> to this login ihuxk!crazyc

>                             Thank-you, 
>                             P.  Cioni

Gary Samuelson
ittvax!bunker!garys