Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site unc.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!whuxl!whuxlm!harpo!decvax!mcnc!unc!walker From: walker@unc.UUCP (Douglas Walker) Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers Subject: Re: Where are they? Message-ID: <34@unc.UUCP> Date: Tue, 16-Apr-85 08:45:17 EST Article-I.D.: unc.34 Posted: Tue Apr 16 08:45:17 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 19-Apr-85 01:08:30 EST References: Reply-To: walker@unc.UUCP (Douglas Walker) Distribution: net Organization: CS Dept., U. of N. Carolina at Chapel Hill Lines: 81 Summary: In article barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes: > >...most estimates of >the number of advanced technological civilizations that might >presently exist in our galaxy are quite low. Even the most >optimistic estimates seem to predict only the tiniest percent of the >stars in our galaxy warm the homes of civilized beings. ... > Let us suppose that, as per Sagan and Shklovsky, only a few >stars spawn high-tech civilizations that survive to at least a few >centuries past our present level of technology. My question is, what >is to prevent at least one of these civilizations from sending colonies out >to neighboring star systems? This may be nit-picking, but... When the Europeans expanded into the New World, did they spawn a new civilization? I think a colony of a planet is more accurately considered part of the same civilization as the parent. Sagan and Shklovsky's reasoning applies to the number of planets *producing* advanced civilizations, not *hosting* advanced civilizations. >... And what is to keep >those colonies from spawning further colonies, etc., etc., out to the edges >of the galaxy? What if this is, in fact, the present state of our galaxy? >Galactic overpopulation? Possible. The number of planets capable of supporting life is, at least according to S/S, small, so... > This is not unreasonable. There is no reason to believe that we >humans won't start doing it in a century or two... Whoa! I don't see us doing anything of the sort! I can see us expanding into space, perhaps L5-type colonies, exploitation of space for factories, etc. BUT I don't see the US or any other government funding a colony to another star without FTL. There would be little or no possible return from such a colony that could not be gotten from a smaller scientific team. The European powers expected gold, spices, etc from the new world; this implies two-way travel. Sure, it took several months to get there, but that's nothing compared to, say, 500 years to get to Alpha Centauri at 1240 kilometers/second average velocity. And Alpha Centauri is only 4.something light years away. > Faster-than light propulsion is not required; many means (suspended >animation, generation ships, near-light speeds) have been proposed whereby >we could colonize nearby stars without FTL. Given O'Neil-type colonies, >even stars without suitable planets could become the home stars of future >colonies. I've never heard of O'Neill-type colonies, but if they are colonies with no home planet, why do we need to put them around other stars? The only reason would be lack of room or resources here, and I don't see us using up all the surface space of a 93,000,000 mile radius sphere soon. Read up on Dyson Spheres and Niven-type Ringworlds. We might use up all easily accessible resources in the solar system at some point, but certainly not in the next few millenia. > How long would it take us to fill up the galaxy? Not as long as >you think. Let's say that each human colony only spawns a new colony >every 500 years. The number of human-settled star systems would then >double every 500 years. At this rate, we populate the galaxy in *less* >than the ~90,000 years it takes to *cross* the galaxy at the speed of >light! This assumes that when a colony is spawned, the sister colony instantly arrives at its location. This is not true even for the first colony, as argued above, but it is even less true of the original colonies. The picture you give has a constantly expanding sphere of colonied stars. The planets at the center of this sphere would be quite a ways from the edge of the sphere! Their colonies would need to travel thousands of light years instead of four or five light years. Another problem: if we are actually looking for habitable planets rather than sowing planetless colonies, we must work around the center of the galaxy. The center of the galaxy consists of population I stars, which are much older than our sun ( a population II star). These population I stars were formed when there were far fewer heavy elements in the universe - indeed, the heavy elements the earth was formed from probably were produced in the hearts of a pop I star. pop I stars will have no habitable planets. Thus, the sphere is even more skewed. I also question the ability of a brand-new colony to reproduce in only 500 years (as well as its motivation to) but that's another story. All in all, I don't see non-FTL (STL?) colonization of other solar systems. But then again, if some sort of CHEAP propulsion is developed that would allow private organizations to try... and some sort of near-perfect suspended animation or balanced ship-sized ecosystem is developed.... I sure hope I'm wrong!