Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site mnetor.UUCP
Path: utzoo!utcs!mnetor!clewis
From: clewis@mnetor.UUCP (Chris Lewis)
Newsgroups: can.general
Subject: Re: War Criminals
Message-ID: <458@mnetor.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 23-Apr-85 16:43:27 EST
Article-I.D.: mnetor.458
Posted: Tue Apr 23 16:43:27 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 23-Apr-85 18:44:10 EST
References: <2186@utcsstat.UUCP>
Reply-To: clewis@mnetor.UUCP (Chris Lewis)
Organization: Computer X (CANADA) Ltd., Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Lines: 78
Summary: 

In article <2186@utcsstat.UUCP> larry@utcsstat.UUCP (larry) writes:
>
>    Some comments re: Fred Williams' article on war criminals.
>
>You seem to have the impression that these people committed one terrible
>act in the heat of anger and are spending the rest of their lives
>thinking  "what have I done!!!!".  I am not convinced that war
>criminals are overwhelmed with guilt.

Nor am I.  However, consider the environment in which they were living.
The society positively reinforced such actions.  Any and 
all dissent was violently suppressed.  If you were able-bodied and
within draft age (sick and between 12 and 80 by 1945) you were placed 
in the army and told what to do.  There were very few alternatives - 
flee the country (which was very hard, particularly, since most 
other countries wouldn't accept you), die for your beliefs (also 
very hard, what about your children?), or go along with it (to 
various extents).  A lot of Germans died for refusing to follow
orders or actively trying to change the system.  As a matter of survival 
you might have to do things that you wouldn't normally dream of doing.

This is not to suggest that "War Criminals" should not be pursued.
People like Mengele should be.  They went considerably beyond
what was necessary for their own survival.  There are other categories, 
though: I believe that many so-called war criminals may also be of 
the "neutral-morality" (or "reduced mental capacity") variety of
human being.  Their crimes (if they be called that) are more of
a reflection of the lack of societal constraint and the active
reenforcement of what they were doing, rather than "innate evil".
In this latter case, indictment of the society (beyond attack now)
may be more appropriate (depending on individual circumstances)
than individual prosecution.

Similar reasoning applied to Patti Hearst (particularly including
the sensory deprivation).

Even Alex Nishri's example (of the German soldier killing a baby)
*may* fall under the reduced-capacity/environmental argument - as
unfair as it seems to us.  It depends on many things that we cannot 
know.  As long as such people are judged "fairly" - by the appropriate
laws then justice would probably be served.  That's what we have
laws for.  

My greatest fear is that the current situation creates
the possibilities for severe abuse of people's legal rights - up
to and including lynch mobs - with the news media happily gobbling
it all up and fanning the flames.  I keep remembering the case,
in the US, where a man's life was totally ruined by a case
of mistaken identity.  Many camp survivors positively identified
him as one of their guards.  The trial went on for years.  Finally,
prosecution was terminated because the prosecutor discovered evidence
that the man could not possibly have been involved in the alleged
crimes.  Unfortunately, the damage was already done.

>
>> 	By the way, similar crimes, (usually to a lesser degree), are
>> committed in every war usually by both sides. -Food for thought!
>
>I disagree.  Don't forget, we're not talking about people who were
>killed by enemy forces.  These victims were killed by their own
>countrymen.

Not true - what about the Poles and Russians?  Jews were not
the only ones to be "genocided" in WW II.  Many seem to want to
forget this fact.  

Most wars do have "atrocities" of greater or lesser extent performed 
by both sides.  For example: Cambodia, Vietnam, Iran/Iraq, South 
America and most wars prior to the 1900's.  WW II is just an example 
of where the balance was a lot more one-sided (but not totally so) 
than usual.

>
>                              Larry Wasserman
-- 
Chris Lewis, Computer X (CANADA) Ltd.
UUCP: {allegra, linus, ihnp4}!utzoo!mnetor!clewis
BELL: (416)-475-1300 ext. 321